Headteachers have voted to boycott SATS....

[deaddei]

but in RL what will that mean?
Will some schools not do them?

Exactly Pixie, and marking shocking handwriting online for GCSEs does my eyes in.

T'other problem with SATs for me was the grade inflation. A L5 at primary does not equate to a L5 at secondary so there is no continuum. I would reckon a L5 primary might be a high 4 at secondary, but sometimes a 3. Hence I liked reading ages and their CAT score.

Tell me about it...

oh yes indeed Pixie, guaranteed to enhance one's Parents' Evening experience.

'He got a level 4 in year 6, & we've got his marks here which show he only just missed a level 5. & on his last progress review, you gave him a 4A! So you obviously haven't taught him anything all year!'

This was a comment made on Friday by someone called BeenBeta so I realise it's very out of date:

"Asking me ever more detailed questions proves nothing, but I am a parent. I am only interested in the oucome. You seem to have forgotten that. Schooling is not about what you want to do. It is about what parents and children need. That is what is wrong with the teaching unions and state education system. "

But as a former and still qualified teacher I really must take issue with it. Education is for the children and the future of the country, and in order for that to happen properly then the teachers must agree with what they are being asked to do. Education is not "about what parents need". What nonsense. What have they got to do with it? There are some exceptions, but the average parent does not know much about education and is happy for education to be left to the professionals. So it should be. What do most parents know about running a school? I am not casting aspersions - my parents were happy for the school to be in charge of education and they supported it. We three emerged from school in the early nineties with 10 GCSEs and 3 A levels apiece. This treatment of parents as customers makes me angry. This has partly resulted in the increase in bad behaviour and lack of respect for the profession from children - because they have received the impression from parents that they can come into school and complain and complain until they get what they want. Obviously if there is a genuine matter for complaint, that is different, and I would never deny a parent's right to take issue with it.

If this is off-topic, I apologise, but that person was spouting utter drivel.

And one more thing. This person is advocating multiple choice as a meaningful way of assessing a child's ability and progress and a teacher's success:

"Independent assessment is the norm in every job. I accept that SATs marking may be rubbish in some cases, but that is not a reason to cancel them. I say again, make the ,marking easier with multi-choice and make the exams more regular. Surley a short multi-choice standardised test every term that could be added up at the end of each school year but not be a burden and would be truely independent."

God God. Do you honestly believe that the easiest way to administer the tests is the most valid way? Multiple choice??????? How will that assess their reading comprehension? Their writing? Their problem solving? Even if the rest of your..ahem...educational theories hadn't been deeply, deeply suspect, then this argument would have killed it for me.

And by the way, BeenBeta, your child sounds as though he he is having a very enjoyable childhood

Apologies. That was out of order. I was cross. What I meant was, I expect you remember that childhood is not all about multiple choice questions and rigorous testing and remember to have lots of fun with your children. Children who find learning enjoyable will have the most success

My son, who regularly scores 98 or 99 per cent in maths tests, has gone to school this morning feeling sick, because he knows this term will be SATS term.

Last term when they did practice tests, he had to have a day off school he was feeling so awful.

We put no pressure on him whatsoever, in fact, I'm trying to encourage him to accept lower standards to take the pressure off.

I have no idea what to do to help him.

What a ridiculous situation, that the very process of trying to identify how much progress he has made could be the exact thing that hampers his, erm, 'progress'.

I do hope there is a boycott.

I told my ds the SATs were a game to see how well the teachers could teach, not to see how much he knew, and that his result didn't matter.

His Year 6 teacher was an utter bitch, and said he wasn't going to get 5s, so I did add that it would really piss her off if he pulled his finger out and got 5s, so he did.

Wilf, have you noticed any difference in your students at work since extra testing came in? When I taught undergrads it always bothered me on how focussed they were on only working to the exam, and have heard similar from other academic friends.

Ariesgirl - I pay for schooling. Therefore I am a paying customer but even if I were not I still think I should be treated like one.

I also should say I have never told a teacher how to teach. Not once. I dont know anything about teaching methods and it would be deeply insulting to them. I have always told all the teachers DSs have ever had that I am very happy with what they are doing in the classroom and have never had a disagreement with any of them. I do know something about testing/exams and the type of information that I as a parent would like to see though.

DSs have a nice life and always enjoy school. I just want to know how they are doing at school by giving them an occassional test every 6 months - which allows me to identify areas they are strugglng with. I of course listen to what the teachers say as well.

I feel that some of what you have said is just dismissive of parents. A sort of 'teacher knows best so stop asking questions' attitude that a few others on the thread have displayed. I feel that is also what teaching unions express too. I ask my doctor questions but respect his/her trainng and judgement. That is how I feel about teachers.

Teachers complain when parents are not engaged. I am an engaged parent who once in a while wants to know how my DS is doing using an independent test. Of course I listen to and trust all my DSs teachers and accept their judgement on how best to deal with any areas DSs are struggling with. In one or two areas I noticed DS1 was struggling and now it is sorted I am happy. I did not tell the teacher how to address those weaknesses through - that is her job.

You clearly do not have experience of teaching in a London/South east Prep school. The level of 'parent engagement' I have seen in them is is pretty brutal to say the least and I disagree with it and the insane 11+/13+ coaching that goes on. I am not like that at all and it does make some children very unhappy. I have seen it first hand.

Teachers should be allowed to teach without intereference from parents - as long as parents are informed of the results and outcomes of that teaching. SATs is a bare minimum (not very satisfactory) way of doing that. I want somethng better and more regular but teaching unions make no contribution to improving SATs they just want them dropped.

Robust, regular and externally moderated teacher assessment informs parents of the results and outcomes of teaching, using the same levelling. Far from 'just wanting them dropped', that is the very sensible contribution from the well respected and traditionally moderate NAHT.

AHEM!

A very interesting debate (bar the sneering comments - really Ladies, some of you should be ashamed of yourselves), but can I say a few words in support of BeenBeta?

I have serious concerns about SATS and take on board many of the well-informed comments above, but no system is perfect.

I for one, despite my reservations, am not wholly opposed to SATS, especially after reading about the Bristol University study here.

Apparently, some teachers in teacher assessments have revealed an unconscious bias against black children, who did better when their SATS results were compared with the teacher assessed results.

Testing is not fun, but if a teacher has (mistaken) low expectations about a pupil, I suspect that child would prefer the chance to be marked externally.

Quietly leaving and closing the door now...

Pre-SATS, was there no external moderation of school testing? I'm only really familiar (as an adult!) with the university system, where responsibility for testing rests with the individual institution, but where marking is scrutinised by a system of external examiners.

But what does it matter if a teacher doesn't asses a child perfectly accurately at the end of year 6??? These test results are not going to have any bearing on the child's future. The tests are there to asses school performance and to pass information to secondary school. Grammar schools don't use them as admission criteria so why do parents so want external moderation and marking??? External marking is surely only needed when the exam is going to be used as a qualification in future years.

onebadbaby - but parents want to have an independent report on what progress their child has/is made/making as they progress through primary and transition to secondary school. Assessment is not just for the benefit of teachers.

I don't seem to be getting this through. Parents like SATs because it gives them a sense of whether they should be concerned. I know some teachers think it is not important and that it is badly administered but parents have to have some kind of information - if they have no progress report then they cannot ask proper questions.

BeenBeta reading the SAT threads on this forum and other parenting sites it seems parents do NOT want SATs!

And it has been said before, but our children are among the most tested in the world but frequent testing does not mean better standards. In Scandinavia children barely pick up a pen until the age of seven, yet before they are ten, their standards have outstripped their British counterparts. Childhood is to learn and enjoy, not spend their time worrying about tests.

And no, I haven't taught in a south east prep school. I have taught in State primary and junior schools in deprived rural areas with higher than average special needs and free school meals and lower than average spending allocation per child than in the south east. Not that this is relevant.

It would seem not all parents agree, Beenbeta.

By the way I do read TES Forums - but all your secrets are safe.

"Parents like SATs because it gives them a sense of whether they should be concerned.....parents have to have some kind of information - if they have no progress report then they cannot ask proper questions."

Perhaps you could read my post of 15:22, which answers this concern directly.

BeenBeta- You must be very mis-trusting of your child's teacher if you do not believe the teacher's assessment and own progress reports for your child. Surely all teachers use teacher assessment throughout the year and report to parents 3 times a year at parents evenings.

You come across as very controlling and give the impression that you see education as a drilling and conditioning program rather than a process which allows a child to develop and learn in a creative and nurturing envronment.

By WilfSell Mon 19-Apr-10 13:11:04

"What a ridiculous situation, that the very process of trying to identify how much progress he has made could be the exact thing that hampers his, erm, 'progress'."

Good point, and for your DS, and every other child who feels like this.

Beenbeta we all ( well most of us) pay for our child's education.

However like you I want parents involved. I don't leave the education of my dd just up to the school. Her teacher has 30 in the class, I have one at home.