part time teachers HELP with parents evenings on days OFF

[GordianKnot]

ok so i do three days
parents eve always on day off
dont mind dointg EXAM classes at all, but in KS3 is complusory subject so its tough titty really.
so i said " are you goign to pay me or not expect me in"

teh solution they propose is that my LOVELY HoD reads out what i write down

dont know what do do

The obvious solution is to work fulltime!

You don't want to because of work-life balance, then perhaps this is the price you have to pay. Unless you work in a small subject in a small school, then your decision to work part-time is your own choice.

It is fine going to your union and shouting your rights to your head, but is working to rule particularly helpful in the long run? That's a chance you take, I suppose. And you will be secure in the knowledge that yo were 'right'.

I never see my salary as an hourly rate. I have an annual salary and I do what it takes to do my job, regardless of the specific hours. I worked in industry for many years before teaching, and felt the same way. I never 'charged' the company for travel time or nights away from home.

In my 19 weeks holiday per year, I might spend the equivalent of 2-3 days on school work, which I really don't grudge. I'd rather not be chasing my tail at the start of each term, so it is better for me to work like this.

Clearly, it is difficult if you have small children and rely on babysitters, but these years soon pass. It is hard when you are in the thick of it at the time. In any work place that I have been in, these workers are cut some slack, but only because their colleagues step in and cover for them. You need to have willing colleagues who don't count their working hours to make the whole thing work out.

I'm a bit jealous at you managing that in 2-3 days!

You must be more efficient than me...

I would be very concerned as a parent if a teacher of my child wasn't available for parents evening because they were part time, and would register my concern with the school.

I think if you choose to work part time then it's in your interests to do the parts of the job that fall outside your 'normal' hours. And actually parents evenings fall ouside full time teachers' 'hours' as well.

If part time staff cause a problem for the children/parents/school because of being part time per se, then you can't blame schools for being less flexible about employing people.

I think the bottom line is: pupils should not be disadvantaged by the fact that they have a part time teacher, and the school should not be disadvantaged (financially or in any other way). That creates an issue if part timers are having to paid for 'time off' when full timers aren't.

I'm not suggesting there are simple solutions, but I think if pupils or the school end up being disadvantaged by having part time staff, the end result is that schools will look less favourably at part timers in the first place.

'few academic students want to start working for less than £30K' God, 5 years out of Uni with an MSc and I dream of hitting 30K before I'm 30 (never going to happen!).

I don't work to rule but I make sure that I only work what I am paid for. We work on flexi time so if I work longer than my hours I record that and build up the time off. It is one of the few remaining perks of the civil service. That's the way it is done where I work. I don't get paid a lot considering the level of my job, but we accept that a work-life balance is what we get in return.

Also, when you work PT you have to protect the hours that you work otherwise you end up doing a FT job for half the wage. I have to remind people at work sometimes that Fridays aren't my 'day off', it's when I stay at home and do my 'other job' which is looking after DD, and I don't get paid for it!

"Also, when you work PT you have to protect the hours that you work otherwise you end up doing a FT job for half the wage."
I think that sums it up really.

I don't know why anyone is arguing about this. The School Teachers' Pay and Conditions document clearly states:

1. Part time teachers cannot be required to attend parents' evenings on days which they do not normally work.

1. If by arrangement, a part time teacher attends parents evening on a day which they do not normally work, they have the right to be paid.

Any argument about this is academic.

"It is fine going to your union and shouting your rights to your head, but is working to rule particularly helpful in the long run? That's a chance you take, I suppose. And you will be secure in the knowledge that yo were 'right'."

Mmeblueberry, did you get maternity leave? Teach a class of fewer than 40? Have a permanent contract? Get PPA time?

If so, thank the Union. They protect your rights whether you want them to or not; it's not a moral issue. Any head worth their salt will want to work with the union, not against them.

My school ensures that parents' evenings fall on days where we all work.

FWIW, at the last parents evening, out of 100 students at my school 4, yes, 4 parents turned up.

I hope everyone who thinks part-time workers deserve a raw deal are also happy to earn less than their colleagues, possibly get less than the going rate, work without an entitlement to breaks, not take holidays or be off if a child is sick.. if you're not, why be so down on the hard won rights of others?
Parents need flexible working to become more common, not less. These negative attitudes are indicatie of why this will probably never happen.

"I think the bottom line is: pupils should not be disadvantaged by the fact that they have a part time teacher, and the school should not be disadvantaged (financially or in any other way). That creates an issue if part timers are having to paid for 'time off' when full timers aren't.

I'm not suggesting there are simple solutions, but I think if pupils or the school end up being disadvantaged by having part time staff, the end result is that schools will look less favourably at part timers in the first place."

I think that sums it up very well Violethill. For any teacher, FT or PT, if parents evening falls outside normal teaching hours (usually does) then why should the PT staff be paid but FT not.

Twinset, I hope when my DS reaches high school age he has teachers like you

If my DS had a PT teacher that was not prepared to do parents evenings, I would certainly be complaining to the Head and higher if need be. Its part of being a teacher.

"Its part of being a teacher."

No it's not. The legislation says it isn't.

x post with Tethersend, who said it all much better than me

What if you only worked on Fridays? Would you insist on Parents' Evenings taking place on Friday night?

You need to compromise.

A 'solution' would be to fix parents' eve to a certain day of the week and ensure all part-timers work that day, as my school does. It means I already have childcare in place after school and dh can pick the children up after he finishes work.

If ever a teacher cannot attend a parents evening, parents are invited to contact that member of staff at school at a later date. In most cases p/t staff do try to make parents eves as it is the chance to talk to parents they need to see and not attending actually in the long run makes more work for the teacher.

In fact I cannot attend the next parents' evening as, for the first time in 15yrs, dh and I have had a couple of clashes of parents' evenings . Fortunately, in each case, the classes have been shared so another member of staff has been able to see the parents and we leave notes to relay. We also report online termly and are only a 'phone call away.

tethersend,

If part time workers with flexible arrangements (including teachers but also all other workers in such arrangements) stick to a legalistic line and doggedly only carry out duties as explicitly set out in their contract, I can promise you that sooner or later, such part-time jobs will be very hard to find. Schools and other employers will find ways of avoiding employing people (yes, usually women) on flexible basis.

Nonno- I didn't 'insist' on anything. The days I work are decided by the school, as are the parents' evenings. But thanks for assuming I have that much power.

poutine, I will hold you to your erroneous promise.

The fact that part-time work is available at all is thanks largely to the hard work of the Unions and Feminist campaigning influencing legislation.

Part-time work is an exchange of labour; it is not a 'privilege', and should not be treated as such.

Part time workers do not need to be grateful for anything. The very idea that they are 'conning' their employers by working the hours which they are paid for is ludicrous.

I assume you think that everyone who has ever claimed overtime has been behaving unprofessionally, and should be grateful they have a job at all?

"Schools and other employers will find ways of avoiding employing people (yes, usually women) [on flexible basis.]"

BTW, this was also the excuse argument used to justify paying women less than their male counterparts: 'Suck it up and be grateful, otherwise all the jobs for women will disappear'

you see, tethersend, i don't feel that part-time work SHOULD be available to all, despite all the work on the part of unions which you refer to.

I've personally benefited from legislation which made it hard for my employer to turn down my request for part-time hours (in a role that was previuosly full time). HOWEVER, although it was fantastic for me personally, I accept that it WASN'T fantastic for my employer.

In a similar way, I don't think lots of part-time teachers in a school is good for the children they teach. But I do accept that it is good for the teachers themselves because it allows them a good work-home balance - just as it did for me.

i hardly think this is an uncommon or radical point of view!

Not uncommon or radical, but a point of view I strongly disagree with.

Thankfully, the law agrees with me.

happy to agree to disagree.
but am rather interested that you don't debate my view that part-time teachers not necessarily in the interests of students.

Oh Christ poutine, you're serious?

Have you considered the interests of the students with teachers as parents? Or do their interests not figure?

Or do you believe that all parents should work full time? Because there would need to be government funded childcare on a massive scale... or perhaps a dramatic increase in wages? Or should parents not work at all?

Perhaps all teachers should work for nothing, as it's the interests of the children they teach which are paramount after all. The money spent on wages could then be spent on facilities for the students.

Schools want to hang on to good teachers. They would much rather keep a good part time teacher than sack them for wanting part time hours and recruit a childless young teacher who may be excellent or may be appalling. They also get teachers who often work close to full time hours for part time pay.

Can I be directed to attend an evening event?
This will depend on the nature of the events. Teachers are required to provide feedback to parents as part of their contract, and so can be required to attend parents' evenings. However, this does not extend to other events, such as promotional open evenings. These are not part of a teacher's statutory duties, and so cannot be directed.

Can I be directed to attend a weekend event?
No. No teacher, at any level, can be required to attend an event on a Saturday, Sunday or Bank Holiday.

How many hours directed time do I have as a part-time member of staff?
Part-time members of staff have a directed hours budget which matches their fractional pay amount. For example, a teacher on a 0.6 contract has a directed time budget of 759 hours per year. See also the part-time pay page.

back to the op

That seems rather a bizarre answer to my question. I simply expressed the view that having lots of part-time teachers in a school is not necessarily best for the children. Lots of parents feel this way, despite it not being a very palatable outcome of changes to employment law. But the situation, while becoming increasingly common, is a bit of a white elephant. No one likes to talk about it openly. But believe me, it's being discussed in whispers in playgrounds.

This is not an attack on teachers at all. Most teachers I know are extremely hard-working, professional and are great educators.

You said that schools hire back good teachers on a part-time basis. Well, that's the point, they are great teachers. But being taught by several teachers across the week has all sorts of negative implications for students even if the teachers are doing their best, are very motivated, hard-working, etc

duckyfuzz, your quote refers to full time teachers.

Interestingly, the page you linked to links to the School Teachers Pay and Conditions Document which clearly states:

"STPCD para 74.7 & 74.8 & STPCD statutory guidance para 143 and 176

The STPCD provides that part time teachers cannot now be required to work or attend non-pupil days on days when they do not normally work (STPCD para 74.7).

They may, however, agree to attend staff/departmental meetings, parents/open evenings and INSET days and other non-pupil days on such days by mutual agreement with the head teacher. Where they do agree to work on days when they do not normally work, this cannot by definition be included in directed time. The STPCD therefore includes a provision for additional payment for this working time. The formula for this payment provides, in effect, for part time teachers to receive 1/1265 of the appropriate full time pay rate for each hour of additional working time."

I don't know how many more times I have to say it.

Do you fancy answering any of my questions, poutine?

Thought you wanted to debate, not just reassert your points