Scared by my school snob friend!

[Elllie]

We have been living abroad as part of a 4yr work placement, and we are choosing (yes, choosing!) to come back to the UK as we miss friends and family. I have two DC. I was discussing that I had seen a nice Surrey town we would like to settle in, and my friend, who appears to have become the biggest school snob in the world, has said that we are nuts for not choosing the school first, and then the location. As she is self employed, she has managed to hide a lot of her income and get 100% bursaries for her children at top schools - she was desperate for them to be sent to boarding schools!
I want my DC (currently 3 and 1) to do well, but quite frankly, we earn far too much to be considered for a bursary, and not enough to pay school fees for two DC without serious sacrifice.
SHe is making me feel that as her DCs are now off to the best schools in UK that I will be harming my DCs by not putting their schools first in out list of requirements when moving back. We are comfortably well off, but I am not so keen to reduce our lifestyle to the point that we all struggle to live a decent lifestyle so our DCs can go to private school. I have always presumed that if a child is bright, they will succeed whatever.
I would love to hear opinions, as I am not so familiar with the school system here:

1. Is the school situation so bad that we must choose to live in the catchment area of a good school rather than live where we like? 2)Is state education really so bad here? My DH went to a state school and still studied at Oxford
2. SHould we be taking the view that we should sacrifice an awful lot just to get our DCs into prep and private schools. I realise there is a lot here, but I would love some opinions. Thanks!

My DDs went to state school for infant and junior, and transferred into private at senior - along with a number of their friends, and all are doing well. I really wouldn't worry about sending them private initially unless you particularly want to. Although you do have to be aware of the catchment areas, the vast majority of homes in this area are in the catchment area of a good school - so you'd be unlucky to choose somewhere that you won't get into a good school from (but you don't want to take that chance). Secondary school catchments are a different story - so worth saving any money to give you choice when you get to that time.

Anyway we're here to help you. Tell us about your ideal home, town, village, rural, no of bedrooms/ approximate budget, and I'm sure we can find a few good examples..

Had a very quick look - and this is lovely - www.primelocation.com/uk-property-to-rent/details/id/JDLC5607877

Shackleford has a lovely village infant (4-7yrs) school, from there most children go onto either Waverley Abbey, Chandler or St James.

Shackleford village website here - www.shackleford.org/ You can see the St Mary's children doing maypole dancing on the homepage.

I think you need to sit down and break down what might actually happen in different scenarios. There is actually quite a bit of middle ground between independent/top-state-school-of-the-country and absolutely-awful-school-where-your-child-will-have-any-desire-to-learn-beaten-out-of-them-by-huge-bu llies. What precisely does your friend mean by child abuse? Does she mean that your child is actually likely to be abused at a particular type of school? Or does she mean that his chances to become prime minister may be statistically lessened? And if so, how important is that to you?

Being somebody who cannot afford either to go independent or move into the catchment for a school with very good results, I am happy to accept that if my children do want to get top jobs, they will need to work that little bit harder. It is not impossible, but it will possibly mean more inventiveness, more pushing. But it will not be impossible. Or then again, they may decide they do not want top jobs. Or whatever. But I would not consider myself guilty of child abuse even if they did end up as say nurses or primary school teachers.

When we lived in the USA, we chose our school district before we chose the house. Our realtor gave us a list of school district, ranked by quality. We managed to get a house in a top district, although I wasn't that enamoured by the schools. They talked them up a lot. Still, I don't think the one we were in had as many problems as where we now live, but that was a bit of a middle class ghetto with a school tax levy to keep the riff-raff out.

It sounds to me that you have a lot of issues regarding returning to the UK. I doesn't seem like it is just a school dilemma.

Well, we are currently in Houston TX. Living in a huge 4,500 sqft house of luxury, on the lakefront, huge garden, safe neighbourhood and surrounded by great (free) schools.
However.... we are bored, bored, bored. That is our dilemma.
On paper, our life in Houston looks great.But there are many things we don't like so much here. My DH is at work in an office, so he feels less of the change. But I don't feel as happy or fulfilled as I did in UK. The women are very different out here - it is an entirely different culture in Texas (perhaps select to Texas). The women live for their churches and families, and very few people seem to have cultural interests, social lives or indeed go out for dinner or stay anywhere later than 9.30pm. It is very Stepford, in that no-one has ever let their mask slip or had a 'bad day' in the four years I have been here. It is a little hard to describe - it is just DULL. Quiet and dull, even after the playdates and activities I do. We make friends easily, but not the sort of friends I have in the UK, and the idea of a friend here is someone you see briefly every few weeks, rather than every few days, or call.
It's a tough way of life and can be lonely. It is very hard to describe, but I have spoken to other expats out here, and they also feel the same.
I miss my friends in the UK (regularly sob over pics they have sent me of their 'days out' to Brighton with the children), being able to visit my family, have my DC KNOW their family. I miss the history, architecture, personalities and cafe culture of europe. I don't miss the yob culture, the rude children and the expense of tiny houses.
Or do we 'tough' it out, feeling bored, but staying so we can have a huge house and our children a good free education? Just what do you sacrifice for your child and their education?
So, yes, I do have issues!

Cosette - I will post some more info later - I have to go on bedtime duty

Oh yes, and don't get me started on the bugs - there are things flying and crawling around out here that make the creature from Alien look cute.
Going outdoors between June and October is pretty impossible too, due to the extreme heat and humidity - I never thought I'd say it, but I miss the UK weather !!!

Elllli, please ignore your friend. As others have said there is a huge range of state schools and some really are excellent. You're in the great position of starting from scratch so definitely identify some of the schools you will be happy with first, then housing.

Ofsteds can be misleading, you do need to get a feel for a school but they are a good starting point. Both my DC's go to state school as do the overwhelming amount of children as there are a number of really excellent first and middle schools that it seems like a complete waste of money to go privately and I do know a couple of people who started off private then realised that they felt they weren't gaining anything by paying. Obviously this isn't the case everywhere but it is well worth doing your research now to give yourself maximum choices.
P
I totally get why you want to come back and I'm sure you can find somewhere which will tick all the boxes for the whole family.

I have a Texan friend in Houston and it is very Kinder, Kirche, Kueche (except that my friend, in common with most of her friends, can't actually cook). Lots of charity dos but no informal meeting up to go for lunch in a pub or cafe. And so, so, hot. Texas seems very old-fashioned. My friend often seems depressed by it all, and she's a native!

Don't panic; most schools in the UK are fine. Also, school reputations aren't necessarily representative.

My dd is at a non popular local state school but - having had children round from other schools this week - I've discovered how far ahead dd and her friends are compared to children at much more middleclass schools.

I've never been worried about schooling. My dh and I did very well acadamically and went to Oxbridge having gone to a mixed bag of schools. Plus, we know many teachers and are very aware of what actually goes on in local schools. (As opposed to what gossiping yummy mummies think goes on in them!)

I personally would never spend money on education when you can get it for free. Plus, having non-middleclass children round to play is like a breath of fresh air; they eat anything and don't have allergies or complex needs!

I wouldn't worry too much about state schools in the uk - we had to move around a bit when the DCs were younger and they went to a mixed bag of primary schools all of which were happy places that my DCs enjoyed, even one that was a bit according to local gossip.

It was only when DD1 was 9 that we looked seriously at the secondary schools where we were going to live. We chose our current house knowing what secondary school the DCs would go to. We live in a town with good state schools and my DCs have done well out of the state system. DD1 is at university and DD2 is in sixth form so they have got through the system unscathed DS is in year 8 and I'm happy with the school and how he is doing. I went to a really terrible state comp (it was a good job I was a bit of a swot and not easily led!) and my kids don't know how lucky they are.

The only think I woudl add would be to be aware of the application dates - this October if your dc is to start in September 2011 whicih they would if they were 4 before the end of August this year. If you move back after that you'll be a late applicant, or in-year applicant. Check the Surrey Council website for more details.

Provision of state education in the UK is patchy. Some schools are excellent, some are dreadful. To avoid the later, you need to live in the right place which takes planning and often money.

Can I just add to this that once I pulled my DD out of a (popular) private school and sent her to a local state primary because I realised the standards were higher, especially in maths, where the brighter kids were practically an entire key stage ahead of their local private school counterparts. This is comparatively rare, but it does happen.

Elllie - I quite understand your extreme frustration at the society that surrounds you in Texas; you analyse it well.

I am a little surprised, therefore, given your own insight into what frustrates you now that you don't seem to understand that schools are like societies - there are ones that will suit your DCs better than others.

If I were you, I would research my DCs' future school options just as carefully as I would research the type of community I was going to be living in. Both are equally important to the well-being of your family.

The thing about believing that the schools in your school district are all excellent is a very comparative view. You think that because you know that there are also schools with metal detectors and a permanent police presence.

I don't know of any UK schools at that extreme negative end, but there is clearly a variability of state schools in the UK.

The big concern with UK schools is bad behaviour. A middle class UK suburb will not be immune from this, where a middle class US suburb will.

However, you don't have children in schools yet and you are going on a self-styled reputation of these schools, and a gung-ho American culture.

Obviously I don't know your school district, but have lived (and sent children to schools) in a top US school district (top 10, top 50 on a national scale - so really up there). I have done my duty in the classroom there (we had a rota organised by a fierce class 'mom'). TBH, I wasn't that impressed by the behaviour of the 7 year old students, with my most recent frame of reference a gritty primary on a Surrey council estate. In general, I was very underwhelmed with the educational system there, where it was very much rote learning to a homogenous mass. At least in the UK, we try to treat students as individuals.

However, I do think they were able to make wanting to learn 'cool', and people were generally nice to one another. When we moved to Surrey, I couldn't contemplate sending my DS to a 40% A-C secondary school after his US experience. That was the beginning of our journey into the private sector, which frankly I have no regrets over.

The big house meant nothing to me. It was just more space to furnish, clean, heat and coool. Much more important was people-relationships, and less emphasis on changing your seasonal flags and having the correct outside lighting. I really wouldn't give a second thought the the material side of life.

If your eldest is 3yrs old, you need to have a permanent address or exchanged contracts by oct/nov - not sure about surrey but apply to schools by december.

We have looked at the same areas at you with similar aged children, there is a serious lack of supply of housing at the moment, may be fine if you are willing to rent. Doesn't seem you can pick your village in the current housing market. Although houses seem to be more in supply in the £1.5m mark. If you are looking for a 4 bed house for under a million, you may have very little choice.

Bonsoir - Thanks for your comments, and I am understanding a lot more about the school situation in light of the advice here. Of course, I did already know there are good and bad schools and location of a new home will be important, I just didn't appreciate how important. The first conversation I had about school choice in the beginning was with my friend, who has become obsessed (if not unhinged!) and claims there are probably only a handful of schools in the country to where my DC should go. I think I shall call her my 'Daily Mail' friend, as she only seems to be concerned with painting the UK and the UK education system in a terrible light (unless my children go to her DC schools). For example 'you can only consider Eagle House, really truly - you have to live only in Cranleigh.'
Mme Blueberry - I think you really understand the society I am living in out here - I daydream about shredding those flags, or at least causing anarchy by hanging out the easter flag at halloween. Hmm. I do know a little more about the local schools than you mention - I have toured them, and know children who study there, and teachers working at various locations. The sports facilities and science labs are top notch.
'You think that because you know that there are
also schools with metal detectors and a permanent
police presence'.
I'm afraid there are no schools like this for miles and miles - I really mean it when I say this place is dull!!!
Having said this, I seem to be surrounded by polite children who are excellent at sports, but hear less about academic acheivement.

I think we will have to rent first, as having spoken to the LocAuth today, I need to have an address in place by Sept. Cripes - I need to get myself to the UK and quick!!! (We also have a property to sell, but that is too complicated to do while aren't resident in the UK, for tax reasons)

If you are truly free to settle anywhere around London (I'm guessing), why don't you go to an area with state grammar schools? That way you might get a good free education for your children - if they don't get in, you can always take up the private option anyway.

If you want to avoid the Stepford Wives scenario again, you might want a town school not a village primary...in prosperous villages it can all get a bit cosily comfortable (dull).