Scared by my school snob friend!

[Elllie]

We have been living abroad as part of a 4yr work placement, and we are choosing (yes, choosing!) to come back to the UK as we miss friends and family. I have two DC. I was discussing that I had seen a nice Surrey town we would like to settle in, and my friend, who appears to have become the biggest school snob in the world, has said that we are nuts for not choosing the school first, and then the location. As she is self employed, she has managed to hide a lot of her income and get 100% bursaries for her children at top schools - she was desperate for them to be sent to boarding schools!
I want my DC (currently 3 and 1) to do well, but quite frankly, we earn far too much to be considered for a bursary, and not enough to pay school fees for two DC without serious sacrifice.
SHe is making me feel that as her DCs are now off to the best schools in UK that I will be harming my DCs by not putting their schools first in out list of requirements when moving back. We are comfortably well off, but I am not so keen to reduce our lifestyle to the point that we all struggle to live a decent lifestyle so our DCs can go to private school. I have always presumed that if a child is bright, they will succeed whatever.
I would love to hear opinions, as I am not so familiar with the school system here:

1. Is the school situation so bad that we must choose to live in the catchment area of a good school rather than live where we like? 2)Is state education really so bad here? My DH went to a state school and still studied at Oxford
2. SHould we be taking the view that we should sacrifice an awful lot just to get our DCs into prep and private schools. I realise there is a lot here, but I would love some opinions. Thanks!

Thanks for the advice - I will speak to a couple of schools on Monday and ask about the catchment area. I had sort of hoped the move back wouldn't be stressful

She is your friend????

Agree with others. Check out catchment areas and then buy or if nothing available rent until something comes up. It's worth it.

In 'nice' areas with good state schools you have to come to terms with the fact that your money doesn't go a long way. However I would always go for the good state school area, because who knows what the future holds and even if you plan to pay for private schools, fate could intervene and your dh/you could lose your job and then private would not be an option.

Your friend sounds gross. But unfortunately there are a fair few scammers out there. I know someone who gets free school meals for their children, and her eldest has just got a bursary to a private school - yet she drives around in a 4X4, is dressed in the latest fashions and her supposed absent husband who left her with nothing seems very much in evidence...

Furthermore (I'm on a roll here!) there are people who try to make you feel insecure about your choices. There are a fair few on MN who are only too quick to imply that anyone contemplating a state school education just doesn't care about their dcs.

1. Is the school situation so bad that we must choose to live in the catchment area of a good school rather than live where we like?

Not necessarily. A lot of state school education is on a par with independent schools these days in terms of long term outcomes for your kids, although independent school marketing will say otherwise. However at VIth form level things get more variable and it is sometimes worth splashing out at this stage. Plus it is often possible to get into popular state schools later on if you don't have success in the first instance, for example in Reception or Year 7. Look for a school which is good at encouraging children individually, which has a thriving extra-curricular programme, and which has an approachable, intelligent head teacher. Excellence in music and modern foreign languages is often a good indicator of a cosy, homogeneous middle class intake, which also confers certain benefits on its pupils.

2)Is state education really so bad here? My DH went to a state school and still studied at Oxford
Most people who go to Oxbridge have attended state schools at some point in their lives, or even had their whole school-based educational experience in the state sector. The students who are in big successful VIth forms with lots of other bright kids do best of all at getting into Oxbridge, so look for one of these.

3. SHould we be taking the view that we should sacrifice an awful lot just to get our DCs into prep and private schools.

Um, no. I am an educationalist and haven't bothered with the private sector in the main - most of what my kids have had in terms of education has been in state schools, although DD went to a top boarding school for social and domestic reasons as much as anything else (luckily someone else paid, as they invariably do these days). When choosing schools, I do pay attention to league table outcomes and the general feel of the school, plus how academic the head teacher is. I like the fact that the independent sector is there, though, because it keeps the state schools in their toes (and the reverse also applies, of course).

BoffinMum thanks so much for those pointers. ANd Gramercy I think the big thing is as you say - people making you insecure about choices. I should be a lot happier about moving back to my home country, without my friend giving me this headache about schools schools schools. I was only just feeling secure about moving back!

Ellie, I don't think you should see it as your friend making you insecure about schools, but rather than she wants to justify her own choices to herself to a large extent. I am a bit guilty of this sometimes, and have to make myself take a step back and be more objective. I can't just be singing the praises of the latest thing I have taken a fancy to, otherwise I would have no currency as an educationalist. I have to listen to other people and pay attention to the hard data.

Also if you email me at boffinmum at hotmail dot co dot uk and tell me where you're househunting, I would be happy to check out the various schools and advise which ones I would be interested in looking around if I was in your position.

My two older dc now 19 and 16 went to private schools and have both done really well. I decided to send my 6 year old ds to the local school mainly as the private was 45mins away. I checked it all out and was really pleased with what the local school had to offer. What I didnt check was what happened at the bottom of the class. Unfortunatly my ds (aug baby) is in that position and getting further behind each week.I now look at his time at school as child care and doing all we can at home to get him into the private system.The ones at the top of the class are doing really well in an otherwise very good school. So dont just look at sats results I wish I hadnt..

I live in the Godalming/Farnham area, and the schools on the whole are very good, particularly at primary level, so I wouldn't worry too much as your DCs are still little, and you can look at secondary schools (which are a bit more variable) nearer the time.

If it helps, then I think the following villages all have very good infant/primary schools:

Puttenham
Shackleford
Elstead
Tilford
Rowledge
Churt

Thanks Boffinmum, I would really appreciate that. We are still in USA at this point, and although we will be coming back at times to check out areas and properties, it is obviously difficult to coordinate, when I can't just 'drive around' areas or ask local people. I love the area of Farnham, and I know the South Farnham school is very popular, so the catchment will be tight. Guildford and Godalming are also favoured places.
We're thinking of renting a property in the right catchment areas of the school we like, not to cheat (as I know this has been happening!) but genuinely because moving countries and selling/ buying a property and settling in, is just a bit too much to coordinate to time limits.
I'm not exactly sure what would happen if we miss the deadline for state school applications yet - I mean, what would happen if our posting abroad suddenly stopped and we had to move back in the middle of the schol year.

Hmm,yes. I am forming a much better idea of what we need to do now. I think I would actually prefer a good state primary, as that would give us some time before having to pay fees, as I am establishing that the secondary choice may be where it is worth paying the hefty fees - particularly as we have two DC to consider.
ALternatively I wonder how feasible it is to get him into a pre-prep at first, as then catchment areas are not so important when we first arrive.

Cosette, do you think there is much to compare between the Guildford/ Godalming/ Farnham areas? Which do you prefer?

I think I would move to the one which is the furthest away from your friend....

With values like your friend such as her deception to her DC school you should avoid her and shop her to the said school

My children started in state primary and moved to independent school for year 3 (DD's now aged 10 and 8).

I must admit that I prefer the school they are in now. Although the state school was lovely, this one has classes half the size, fabulous sport facilities along with a lack of fear for children to compete against each other which DH and I particularly like.

My older daughter was top of her class in the state system, but became middle of the road when she joined this school, she loved the challenge and rose to the top again but this only made me realise the different standards being taught, this surprised me as the state school they went to was considered very good. Younger daughter struggled with maths but has risen from bottom set to middle and actually enjoys her work now.

It is expensive but DH and I feel that a good education where manners/respect for others matter, and that they are excited about going to on a Monday morning, is worth every penny.

Why wouldn't you include schools in the equation about where to live as a family?

When deciding where to live the main drivers, IMO, are (1) distance from your job(s) (2) distance from reasonable schools (3) how much money you have to spend on accommodation

You are spoilt for choice in this part of South West Surrey. Lots of excellent state and private schools and a lot of crossing over between the 2. Some are more fashionable than others at any particular time but I don't think there are many "failing" schools in the area.

Are you planning on staying in the same place throughout your children's schooling? If so, it is important to choose an acceptable secondary school.

Schools in Surrey are very variable. Many of the secondary schools do not have sixth forms which dramatically affects their funding.

Primary schools are okish, and generally reflect the local community. Many places in Surrey have a choice of First and Junior schools (2 separate schools, covering age 4 - 7, and 7 - 11), or primary schools (4 - 11). A lot of people feel strongly about the smaller first school, and then really making a step to junior school, whereas others prefer their children in the same school for as long as possible.

I would suggest that you look at the latest secondary league tables and work your way down. All secondary schools have websites that you can check out.

In looking at Guildford, Godalming and Farnham, you have chosen one of the most expensive parts of the country, but very nice. Your friend is right that you should look at school catchment before buying. You would do the same in the USA.

I live in Surrey and send all my children to independent schools. The local schools are not good. Private primary is, imo, for rich people. If you don't think you can afford it now, wait until they are older and decide then. When they are older, your DH may have been promoted a couple of times and therefore change the overall balance of your finances, and you may be able to go back to work yourself. To really keep your options open, be modest about your house choice. Don't max out your mortgage.

1. Is the school situation so bad that we must choose to live in the catchment area of a good school rather than live where we like? IMO you'd be nuts not to check out the school situation before buying - .

2)Is state education really so bad here? My DH went to a state school and still studied at Oxford. The standard of state schools is hugely variable I think.

3. SHould we be taking the view that we should sacrifice an awful lot just to get our DCs into prep and private schools. School fees are a millstone and they just go on for years and get more expensive. So £8k a year at pre-prep morphs into £14k for sixth form. Don't forget we have to fork out for universities as well now. It sounds like it wouldn't be a comfortable option for you, so I'd give it a miss. But you really do need to make sure that you're in the catchment area for some decent state schools - how about checking out some state grammar school areas?

We went to live where we do live because that is where dh could get a job (not the most employable of men). We chose the part of town because it had the lowest house prices. State schools have been perfectly ok and children do go on to good universities. Not as high a percentage, maybe, as from top school, but enough to show that it is a possibility. That's good enough for me. Whether my children will want to do so or not remains to be seen, but it is clear that if they do want to try and want to put in the work, it is perfectly possible.

If you are going state I would say that it is fundamental that you pick a school first, as the difference between them is vast. I might be stating the obvious here, but I'd say don't rely too much on SATS results, have a good look at the Ofsted and then visit the school - even with similar results and ofsted often you find the schools are miles apart. You need to get a good vibe when you walk in.

Hope this helped!
Emy x

I grew up in Godalming, and now live in one of the villages. I think much depends on what you're looking for, and where you/DH need to get to for work.

The larger villages are particularly good for families with small children I think, as a lot centres round the school, and people tend to live nearby.

I would start with looking at the junior schools (7-11yrs), and identifying a short list of the ones you like - then check out their feeder infant schools, and the catchment area to find somewhere you like.

For Junior schools take a look at:

Waverley Abbey (Tilford)
Chandler (Witley)
St James (Elstead)
South Farnham
Busbridge (Godalming)

all are good. Don't know much about Guildford schools - so can't help you there..

Thanks everyone - you really are being extremely helpful.
For those saying I am nuts not to consider schools in relation to choosing an area - I would say two things. One is that I am a little out of touch with the UK system (hence I am asking advice here), and actually, where I am living in US (MmeBlueberry), choosing a location according to school catchment is luckily not a factor at all because all of the eight local city schools are excellent, and they cover a very wide area. In fact that is one of the reasons I have felt it is a crazy decision to come back to the UK - however that is another debate: standard of life higher in US vs quality of life in UK (IMO much much higher).
Of course I would consider locating for good schools, but this panic and obsession about catchment areas is a foreign concept to me, as I left UK when my first child was just born. I also have my nightmare friend telling me that I am practically guilty of child abuse if I choose the state system - now of course that she is out of it as a result of defrauding a school.
We also factor in need to reach DH workplace in Surrey, so the Farnham etc areas are perfect.
We could, at a push, send them to pre-prep and private all of the way and remove the catchment headache - it's not like we are struggling financially - it would just involve HUGE lifestyle changes for everyone. And I am trying to weigh up whether it is worth it - I imagine this is the $64m question. I know some people will think no vacations, no frills, no little luxuries, and a very reduced almost devout life is worth having their progeny (hopefully) well educated, but I also conversely believe that my children might enjoy and be educated just as well by hard work, merit, mixing with all types of people and children, foreign holidays, and a generally more relaxed way of life, without the pressure to make sure they do well because mummy and daddy sacrificed so much.
My head hurts!....especially as we will have to find an address in the correct area by end of November this year, and we are coordinating this from the other side of the planet. The USA suddenly seems a lot less stressful!