Education and social mobility - John Humphrys is coming on for a discussion, Fri 29 Jan, at 11.30am

[GeraldineMumsnet]

John Humphrys is filming a documentary about education for BBC2. He is embarking on a journey around Britain to meet parents, teachers and students.

His task is to examine the relationship between education and social mobility - why is it that education cannot close the attainment gap that exists between children from the poorest and wealthiest backgrounds?

Government education advisor David Woods has accused parents of being prejudiced against their local state secondary schools. Dr Anthony Seldon, Master of Wellington College, calls the current independent sector an apartheid system. Professor Stephen Ball, from the Institute of Education, concludes that grammar schools, parental choice and faith schools have all been responses to middle-class concerns.

John is coming to Mumsnet this Friday (29 Jan) at 11.30am to hear your experiences. Are you benefiting from parental choice in education? Is it at the expense of others? Does the current system put too much responsibility on parents to make the right choices? Is it too stressful? Do you feel you have to top-up your children's education eg home-tutoring, learning an instrument, employing a lawyer? Are they worthwhile investments, or necessities that cause resentment?

Please post your thoughts here. Thanks in advance.

I do worry about the standard of teachers but it's almost something that you aren't allowed to mention

Teachers do seem rather good at providing a united front when it comes to criticism so I'm a bit terrified of them

But it is going to vary ENORMOUSLY isn't it?

John, about the aspiration thing, I don't think there are actually any parents who don't aspire for their children to do at least as well, or better than they did. I just think that some parents lack the intelligence/common sense/foresight to realise they are primarily responsible for making that happen.

Who was it said 'Show me the seven year old, and I'll show you the man'?

Good teachers can be a blessing, but I think that they can struggle to be truely inspirational when they have to work withing rigid frameworks and teach to pass exams.

Also, I don't think it matters how good a teacher is if a child isn't ready or interested in what they have to teach - children aren't buckets you can pour knowledge into.

There are always one or two teachers who stand out as exceptional. Just as there are always one or two who should never see the inside of a classroom.

I think that having one really good teacher can make all the difference in the world. Just one teacher who shows you that learning can be FUN and that there is a reason for turning up at school, can turn your education around.

The teacher doesn't even have to cram you full of knowledge. They just have to make you WANT TO LEARN.

No children in secondary yet but my children's teachers in 2 different state primaries have been approx 40% great, 40% alright I suppose and 20% awful.This mirrors my own experience in state primary and secondary schools. So yes, more excellent teachers are always needed!

Those whom I know who have succeeded well beyond what might have been expected are the ones who had exceptionally loving and supportive parents. Individual teachers pale in siginificance to that in my experience.

I suspect that there are fewer dreadful teachers than there were when I was a child - I get the impression is is less easy for the substandard ones to hide. For all its faults, I think the National Curriculum and Ofsted have brought benefits. I am prepared to be corrected though.

agree Otter

Prob too kind on great actually. 20% great, 20% awful, 60% OK.

somethingnew you may have a point.

Some people here will know Bridgwater as a fairly deprived area,well I grew up on a council estate there with a fairly normal family except that Mum and Dad never had a car, went abroad or owned their council house... instead we did school field trips,had books and did the clubs we wanted.

When my mates all left first chance to cut ribbons in the factory, we didn't, we stayed on. It was never considered we wouldn't.

Many ofmy friends haven't worked in over a decade when the factories closed, instead of 3 of us I had a great career (and now a degree) until the boys Sn which is just a bu the by in this: Sis 1 has an HND in animalcare and is studying animal dentistry: sis 2 is a Nursery Manager and is doing her Early Years degree alongside.

Yep,aprents matter.

Got Tony Blair on, on the radio BTW. He's sounding very high-pitched and nervous!

The standard of teacher is mixed in my experience. The head at our junior school said that 'we will never be x school ( a beacon school) down the road because of our demographic. Large number of council houses in catchment. If that is his attitude what help is there. The school is a reasonbly good school and perhaps that the problem. Its not broken so dont fix it.

Just to leap right in on social mobility (and disappear as I have a DS to feed), I was one of those who did better than expected - was in care, alcoholic mum who didnt work etc etc.

Having good teachers to encourage me helped a huge amount as did having good foster carers once the right ones had been found. I think it's key influential adults around children who can make a real difference. I didn't go to a good school but my foster carers encouraged me to go to a decent college for A Levels and from there I got into a top university!

More teachers now are from a middle class backgound. When my parents became teachers, it was a job that attracted many bright, working class young people.

I believe that having many teachers from working class backgrounds meant that schools had higher expectations of working class pupils than they do now.

Has he gone? Can we go back to sloppy grammar now?

I'm hugely grateful for this fantastic response. Sorry I have to leave for our next interview but I promise you we're going to be reading all of your posts and your thoughts will definitely inform the film that emerges from all this. We'll let you know when it's due to be screened... sometime in early Autumn we think.

Incidentally my favourite biscuit is now (I've just eaten one) MNHQ's homemade oatcake cookies - c/o JenniferMumsnet.

I agree with those who say the choice is an illusion. The problem is that most of us don't really want a choice. Obviously it would be a fabulous luxury to have a number of good schools nearby, with one that was slightly better at music, one that was slightly better at sport, one with smaller class sizes, one with etc etc, but what we really want is a friendly happy school, that treats children individually and has small enough class sizes to do that. But the 'choice' boils down to your nearest school, or a very poorly performing school some distance away, because most good schools are oversubscribed and so if you don't pick the nearest you reduce your chances of getting a place

"We can all remember at least one good teacher who helped inspire us. Are there enough of those teachers?"

Chinese proverb: When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
It doesn't have to be a school-teacher, it could be anybody.

We have had problems with a few teachers but our school has a strange (albeit MS state) systemoutside of LEA regulation for teahcer hring that palces diocese and Governor preference ahead of all else.

Which (reputedly ) led to the SENCOwith a massive history of complaints being hired forHead of Year with Vicars backing (her Godfather) above someone with apaprently a great CV and needd IT experience.

Ov.can't prove that and basing on Governor information.

Peachy - I am counting on the fact that parents matter more than the schools! I am quite happy with their schools atm (RB has improved a lot since you were in school and E is also improving) but I'm under no illusions that any school is going to rocket my child into stellar academic success without a lot of input and support from home.

Or, English proverb: you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Those wonderful teachers are out there and I have met several of them. However, they are far out weighed by the others. Also, I feel they are in a catch 22. If they teach for SATS only, surely it restricts the learning. At the end of the day anyone can be taught (and teach) children to fill in a couple of boxes correctly, but only an inspirational person with a love for their subject and their job, bring a subject alive in front of a group of teenagers and make them live, love and learn it. Surely, these are the teachers that all of our schools crave. But once they are in post, they should be allowed to do their job! School should not be about league tables.

I was poor and can remember believing along with my peers that anyone who played the system, profitted from burglary etc was only really redistribute wealth. I didnt understant that education could get me out. It would have been hard for a teacher (one of 'them' ) to have inspired me.

Thank you John!

Perhaps we should compulsorily pipe radio 4 into the houses of all children? Am convinced that coming from a home where radio 4 burbles constantly in the background is generally predictive of educational success.