Education and social mobility - John Humphrys is coming on for a discussion, Fri 29 Jan, at 11.30am

[GeraldineMumsnet]

John Humphrys is filming a documentary about education for BBC2. He is embarking on a journey around Britain to meet parents, teachers and students.

His task is to examine the relationship between education and social mobility - why is it that education cannot close the attainment gap that exists between children from the poorest and wealthiest backgrounds?

Government education advisor David Woods has accused parents of being prejudiced against their local state secondary schools. Dr Anthony Seldon, Master of Wellington College, calls the current independent sector an apartheid system. Professor Stephen Ball, from the Institute of Education, concludes that grammar schools, parental choice and faith schools have all been responses to middle-class concerns.

John is coming to Mumsnet this Friday (29 Jan) at 11.30am to hear your experiences. Are you benefiting from parental choice in education? Is it at the expense of others? Does the current system put too much responsibility on parents to make the right choices? Is it too stressful? Do you feel you have to top-up your children's education eg home-tutoring, learning an instrument, employing a lawyer? Are they worthwhile investments, or necessities that cause resentment?

Please post your thoughts here. Thanks in advance.

Builde - SNAP!

Do those who have been successful on their own behalf and on behalf of their own children feel any sense of guilt that they've had to push other less advantaged children to one side?

(end of that post went wrong! - ways to be sucessful)

I think where you live has an impact on parental aspiration and achievement. My parents were brought up in tenements and were not educated past the age of 12. I was the first person in my entire extended family to attend university. I think, for them, the crucial issue was moving out of the city and buying their own home. We had quite a different upbringing to our cousins who remained in the city in social housing. However this was the 60s and I don't think it's as simple as that today - however housing still has a marked impact on life-chances.

John,

I wonder if it is appropriate to discuss social mobility across the educational range. Is this not very different in primary and secondary schools? Secondary schools have become much larger since the introduction of comprehensives. Could this be a factor in the disruption, bullying, disaffection etc., experienced in schools?

Well, Mr Humphrys, in answer to your question, you have a young son - how anxious/over-protective would you be about your son going to a senior school that was considered to be 'failing' and exhibiting all the social problems I outlined? We lose the power to be rational, surely? Our children only get one childhood, one education. We can't afford to take chances with their wellbeing and their future. I feel desperately sorry for good, well-meaning parents who feel powerless to prevent their children going into such a negative environment, but I am not going to demonstrate my empathy by throwing my child to the lions too!

To an extent my inability to push less advanataged children aside has been a factor hindering my son's education and the fact that I am having to do it now to get basics is something I hate and struggle with very much. If there are two children with the same need,how comeonly the one with a pushy mumcan get help? Seems so wrong.

I agree anastaisia and builde

I'd love my kids to have a wide range of useful skills and to be nice people and find some sort of work that doesn't bore them shitless for 40 years

If they could understand Eddie Izzard sketches, that would be a bonus

I am not convinced aspiration is what makes people succeed. I am happy for my son to become a bus driver, although I am an academic, but I still want him to love education and appreciate how amazing science is.

My grandfather was a coal miner; he read my mother many wondeful books. He didn't do it because he wanted her to be middle class; he did it because he loved the books and wanted to share them with her.

Our culture is anti-intellectual. Education has become only about getting on, and I actually think that approach stops people from learning.

TiggyR the honest answer to that is that I am a protective parent (who isn't?) and I'd hate the thought of my child going to a school where he was likely to be bullied and get a lousy education. I also feel some guilt that I can buy him the kind of education that many can't afford.

There is a downside to social mobility which is that (if you come from a deprived area as I do)you have to move away to move up. My group of school friends all went to university in the 1980s and we are scattered to the four winds. There was nothing for us back at home as graduates.

Now, as a mother, I can understand parents wanting to keep their families close by.

I feel guilt about that too, but I do it, nonetheless!

It's a shame how few children from poorer backgrounds do any enrichment activities outside school, either of the regular sport/music lesson/drama variety or attending one off events in theatres/galleries/museums. While creating a nation of overscheduled Tarquins is probably not a good aim, giving a much wider mix of children access to extra curricular activities that interest them is important, I think.

MillyR Education is not just about getting on, it seems to now be just about getting high in the League Tables.

In the run-up to SATs, I know some local schools cut down the 'normal' teaching to concentrate on showing the children how to answer the questions. That doesn't inspire children to learn.

We talk a lot about success, I'm not sure how to define it

How would we define "failure"? I seem to have a lot of friends in their mid-thirties with miserable admin jobs and brilliant arts degrees...

I do think that there is a massive lack of mentoring in this country, we are crap at actually encouraging each other and giving each other confidence

MillyR
I agree completely - I want DD to be happy, to be self-sufficient and to love learning for the sake of learning. I don't care if she wants to be a scientist or a hairdresser or a stay-at-home parent. So long as she has choices and enjoys her life.

I completely agree with MillyR on the anti-intellectual front. We do like to stop people getting to 'full of themselves'.

a point would be that I don't think the end product of a good education is a high paying job, I just think it should be a well rounded experience to allow children to have choices of what to do with their lives
I don't think that happens at present, the focus on testing and league tables is not, in my view, conducive to providing a good standard of education for all

Bearing in mind that in under-privileged areas where parents rely on the school bus to bring the children home from school, after-school clubs are not an option. Parents just cannot leave work two or three times a week to collect their children from school.

Another way in which children from poorer families miss out on enriching experiences.

Too!!

Mmmcoffee I completely agree with that. Education must aim to produce rounded individuals and you don't do that if all you're concerned about is exam results and league tables.

My eldest dd is in Y5. We will hopefully get her into a single sex faith comprehensive school. Yes I do feel guilty that non Catholic children will not get the chance to go to such a good secondary school. I even feel a little bad that I have dd's, as the boys do not have such a good equivalent school. There's Catholic guilt for you.

To add to the guilt, if dd1 does not get into our first choice school then we will probably send her to a private school. Unfortunately, I am too risk adverse to send her to a school which will probably be fine, but may not be.

I've not had to push anyone aside (I am a lifelong underachiever - classic 2:2 material, C grades for everything else) but it does upset me to think that if my son is is only getting the help he needs because I've got the means and inclination to get it for him.

If I was poor, or not bothered, he'd be stuffed as far as school is concerned. I don't feel guilty - I feel saddened and angry for the children who aren't getting this help.

What do people think about the standard of individual teachers as opposed to the system as a whole?
We can all remember at least one good teacher who helped inspire us. Are there enough of those teachers?

Reading all this makes me think parental involvement is the defining factor in social mobility.