Is it just me that feels this way?

[Melaniefhappy]

Hi Everyone,

Am I the only one to feel utterly disappointed, if not despairing, about the standard of education at my state primary school (in Hampshire)?

We recently changed schools (moved home) and whilst I totally accept that all schools are different, this new one offers little to inspire the children to do well; for example ..they do no spelling tests, do not ever correct spellings on written work, send home work that is appalling to be 'celebrated' by parents. Dare I go on as I don't wish to bore you ..however... they only read once a week with the children at any age (our old school read everyday - I know, as I went in twice a week with another army of mums to help this happen). Our new school refuses to consider this option despite friendly discussions with the teacher, offers of help, letters and meetings with the head.

Hence I feel I am home schooling first and foremost (in a fun way at home) with school doing the rest- harsh but true. In fact, if my children suceed in their primary education it will be despite the school's involvement, not as a result of it. They are very ready to book fun things - school trips, teachers dressing up for fun reward days, in classroom picnics, and lots of watching videos..but the academics seem to be second place at all times unless you are in the gifted and talented group - you lucky people you!!!

Just before you ask ...other parents in our class range from not really bothered about their children's reading and spelling standards through to worried but have been (like me) totally ground down by the 'no no no' attitude of the school. Despite gentle friendly approaches of concern, nothing happens- and I am the class rep!!! Trouble is, I do not wish to have to quite literally argue/fight with the school and force the issues through Governor levels and on to the Department of Education (or whatever it is called now). Am I a coward?

Yes I am on the PTA, and yes I go in to read, and help as much as I can in the school, and funnily enough there was lots of competition to be a Governor so I didn't take this route - rather wish I had now- might have had a real voice!!!.

Hence I am currently playing the lottery to afford to send my two children to private school - both my husband and I went, and without this, neither one of us would have done so well. Not well enough however to afford the fees today!

Sorry ...rant over!!! I just wondered if I was alone in this or if I am mad, unreasonable and expecting too much.
All the best, really sorry again to moan- it is either this or cry!
Melanie
x

I see Sir Ken as part of the same movement to dumb down, as well as the new proposed English GCSE about facebook and digital text etc. It is nothing to do with the conscientious teachers

It includes "being able to construct a sentence".

Is that your justification? We don't know anything about the past? So let's not bother to aspire to more than the Sun?

We do know about two years ago and about how standards have fallen since then.

Quite apart from that, it is easy to see that more time spent learning and less time spent playing at school would benefit many children. So never mind what went on in the past, we could give children a better education now, if we wanted to. Many private schools do. Many state schools seem rely on great teachers and a good demographic to overcome the failings of the NC. It's so unfair that the worst off are now falling victim to the fear of appearing prescriptive.

Of course the aspiration is more than L3. I'm just saying that they are not illiterate at L3, as many of the papers lead us to believe.

L3 writers have to construct a complex sentence, need to understand phrases and clauses, and use adjective and adverbs (including phrases), paragraph, write in different genres for different audiences.... and the rest.... it is MUCH more than 'constructing a sentence'.

What playing? When do we play, apart from playtime?

Well, the hard parts are telling children when they have got a spelling wrong, and putting a cross by their work, correcting them, boring them with grammar, teaching them that not everything they produce is a reason for celebration, having regular spelling and tables tests, listening to them read one on one to pick up mistakes so they can't hide behind six others.

Guess what, you aren't their best friend, they can play and talk and draw and dress up plenty. But who else is going to teach them?

The aspiration is not more than L3 unless you address methodology. You don't want to do that and you are happy with the status quo. Therefore the current situation is satisfactory to you.

Look Bunny, you sound like a great teacher and I don't want to put you in a bad mood if it seems as though I'm being contrary.

It's nothing to do with you that I'm so cross: it's these poor children who get nowhere that I feel so angry about.

Will look in tomorrow but just want to say I realise I've become rather caustic and I can imagine how hard you work so really, I shouldn't have directed it at you.

But Peacocks - you aren't listening.... we do teach grammar - look at the L4 descriptors and that will be obvious; we do have times tables tests (who said we don't?); we teach spelling and reading every day for 3 years, with a test once a week to check they are on target. These things do not have to be boring. Each child will read to the teacher in a guided reading group, so we will pick up on individual problems.

I just don;t think you want to know.

Yippee for private schools eh?

Peacocks sorry as this is becoming a bit focused on you, but I think you're being a bit circular too, EasterBunny's said repeatedly that schools do teach spelling and reading so they do teach what you call the 'hard parts' - the only part she's differed from you on is methodology.
In a slightly earlier post you questioned education through play, yet studies repeatedly show (internationally as well as home grown) that learning through play in the early years yields far better long term results.
Also I'm not sure either why you keep saying standards are falling. Yes there has been a statistical decline over the past two years, but overall everyone says standards of literacy have improved over the past 15 years. Also the 'poor children' who you talk about are being better served than ever in terms of starting points at school and where they move to. I'm repeating myself too, but nobody on here's saying it's perfect as it's very far from being so, but there really is a lot of good in what's happening now and EasterBunny's school isn't as much of an exception as you insist it must be.

Not an exception at all! (Nor exceptional! )

• hooray for that

Dd in year 1 went to a primary much like your first primary in that she was expected to plod through ORT reading scheme, read almost every day to TA, had weekly spelling tests etc
Part way through y1 we moved her to a different school where there is no individual reading, there is a huge library of books children are assessed termly and allocated a colour. Children and parents then choose books from that colour as many as they wish as often as they choose. These books are read at home.
There were no spelling tests (the whole primary does phonics in ability groups daily) and no homework either.
I have to say that initially I was concerned, it wasn't what I was used to but I watched and looked at dd's work on the walls and in her books. Saw how she had the confidence to choose any book (not just ORT) was happy at having a go at spelling any word and got the majority of them right too and she had a thirst for learning.
I think I learnt that just because it's not the traditional way nor the way you are accustomed too doesn't make it the wrong way.
Dd now is romping ahead of her old classmates and the OFSTED reports and the SATs scores echo our experience.
Try and have faith.

Hurray! Proof that my school isn't the exception! Thanks asdx2

Gosh -- its like looking at black dog and saying it's white because there's a flash on the end of its tail.

"it's like"

Bunny -- you said it was demoralising to correct spellings and grammar.

"everyone says"?

Actually "everyone" also says GCSEs are easier than O levels, and O Levels fifty years ago were harder than O Levels twenty years ago, and universities say they often have to give students remedial teaching. Science professors complain that school science does not prepare for a science degree. Employers complain that interviewees are inarticulate and too poorly educated. "Everyone" says a lot of things. It seems that "everyone" is not right all the time.

You have chosen to ignore those other "everyones" it seems.

EasterBunny....you aren't in Derbyshire by any chance? How you write reminds me an awful lot of dd's literacy teacher

Hi Everyone,

Thanks SO much for all your comments- some quite literally made me stand up and cheer - hbfac for one and Litchick - both earlier on. Each made me feel I wasn't going mad - so were very much appreciated.

It has also been amazing to see the dialogue - thanks to Bunny, Peacock et al for all your exchanges. For parents not in the education sector, is great to get the chance to hear it from the teacher's angle and have it subsequently questioned by other parents.

Whenever I question anything at school in a friendly but firm way, I am given a pat on the head and sent home with a resounding 'there, there' as if I am mentally subnormal. It doesn't matter how many times the new teaching techniques are explained - if I can't see progress from YR1 to YR2 at comparable levels to kids in YR2 at other schools then, I don't think it unfair to question what is going on. Blind faith is probably what is called for here!

Hence I spoke with the teacher three weeks before the end of summer term. I was told my DD's lack of progress would be dealt with next academic year with her new teacher. What was wrong with having a wee go at improving things before the end of that term? Easier to leave it to her new teacher eh!

What I think is happening mostly is that the ones who are struggling, get help, and those that are gifted, get even more support; thus both groups manifest great improvement. For those languishing in the 'averagely ok' section there is little focus. Why bother to improve them as they are hitting national targets (which are pretty low it has to be said). Sorry but why not help the 'averages' to fully reach their own potential too? Resources perhaps? Or is it as they don't technically need to for their statistics - ouch, sorry!

I do appreciate how hard good teachers work, I also understand how frustrating it must be for teachers when parents do not pull their weight (for whatever reason- educational ability or just sheer exhaustion from working/raising a family). Rather ironically, at this school many parents take their kids skiiing and on fabulous summer holidays. I am NOT criticising at all (would love to do so myself!) but it saddens me that even these children who are not from cash poor homes, but from time poor/other priorities homes, are behind in their reading and are not read with at home.

I also appreciate that there are new methods of teaching for parents to get to grips with and, as someone said earlier, it may be time for me to have a little more faith and to be patient. I have to confess that what scares me most of all is being patient and trusting the system, and at Year 6 finding out that I was wrong to do this, and in doing so had let both my children down.

I totally agree there has been massive dumbing down educationally - sorry if this offends some, but it really is true. As an employer of graduates, I see it daily and it makes me even more determined to ensure my kids and others I help at school, get the best education - preferably using old and new methods- as each child learns in a different way.

I will continue with home learning. I don't know if I have the stomach to go in again - Easter Bunny you believe in the system fully - perhaps this is as you are really observing your kids, and making all efforts to ensure they progress. We have had so many teacher changes in the last two years that I doubt they could tell you what reading stage the children are on - ironically the mums that go in to read with them can!!!

Thanks again for your comments- all have helped me to understand the system better and to realise I am not alone.

All the best
Melanie

Melanie the only thing that matters is you're not happy. All that many were saying is are you really sure it's that bad as sometimes teachers teach in ways we might not recognise (or something like that!). You're sure it's not good, so you must do the right thing for your child. I'm sure everyone would agree with that. hope you find a way through it all.

• to peacocks, am bowing out because this is becoming circular and so dull. As I go though I should respond, so no I wasn't ignoring 'everyone', just stating a fact as statistically things have improved in the past 15 years. Am not denying the people you talk of and as I've said many many times, nobody's saying the system's perfect but still it is generally better in that more people can read and write than ever before. Yes there's a long way to go I agree with you, but I happen to think a lot has improved.

One last thing as I'm genuinely mystified as to why you don't answer v.clear points,eg to Easter Bunny's post which couldn't have been clearer. She said: "But Peacocks - you aren't listening.... we do teach grammar - look at the L4 descriptors and that will be obvious; we do have times tables tests (who said we don't?); we teach spelling and reading every day for 3 years, with a test once a week to check they are on target. These things do not have to be boring. Each child will read to the teacher in a guided reading group, so we will pick up on individual problems." How can you respond to that with " Bunny you said it was demoralising to correct spellings and grammar." That's not an answer, it's taking something EB took out of context from earlier on - you're obviously incredibly bright, so why would you need to do that? Farewell though, am gone.

Many of you seem to be along the right lines in confirming that children are encouraged to write (off their own bat, not copying, and not worrying about spelling) until they're a bit order.

I also get sent lots of CVs and many of them have the most appalling grammar and spelling buy - they tend to go hand in hand with poor A-levels and poor degrees and therefore I tend to ignore them.

I did very well in the state sector in comparison with my privately educated friends who - when we were at school - were educated much more formally at a young age than I was.

Personally, I think that formality and regular testing of many private schools hinders children rather than helps them. But, if you find a good private school that thinks about it's education methods, you might get a decent education in on.

But Bunny isn't teaching in every school in the country and even though she's plainly a good teacher, she herself has explained that marking wrong is demoralising. Why is it out of context? Why ask a lot of questions if you don't want to read the answer?

If the children aren't learning then it's not being taught, however many boxes are being ticked.

Analogy: it's like me wiping down a surface and saying I cleaned it when it's clearly not clean. "But it's still dirty." say you. The response is: "No, but I cleaned it." "But it's not clean." "But I cleaned it so it must be clean."

You're right -- it's a circular conversation. None of which helps the 115,000 children who left primary last year without a decent level of education. They're not educated. "But we educated them."

Well, actually, no we didn't.

How rude of me. Melanie it was interesting to read your last post and thanks for coming back to the thread. You're right to worry about giving them the benefit of the doubt for these crucial years. At the time my eldest left his primary, it was decided and announced that the methods used for teaching maths would be changed as they were not as productive as hoped. They'd been introduced oh, around the time he entered. Yeah, thanks for that.

If you still use the school, do it your own way at home. Don't listen to any teachers telling you (as I did) that you "aren't allowed" to use techniques which your children will find confusing if they differ from the school's. Don't be afraid to do things your way. Trust your judgement.

Aw Peacocks I can't resist replying - you took it out of context (imo) because when Bunny said that she was explaining how in KS1 they sometimes let incorrect spellings go, as they concentrate on fluency, confidence, etc. In her opinion that works well. She then went on to say (several times in repeated posts), that of course they teach spelling in primary and teach it intensively and yes they very much see it as important. So what you did is to take one one quote from earlier and didn't mention her repeated reassurances since. Yes she did say what you quote, but it's not the whole picture which I don't think is very fair, so that's why I'm defending her.
Actually though, she's agreeing with you isn't she, as am I. Spelling's important - isn't that what we're all saying?

Yes, it's awfully important, but why aren't children learning to spell? If all teachers are like Bunny, where's the problem? Could it be the methodology?

I think it's the methodology, and not wanting to correct children.

In my opinion there's a fundamental flaw in thinking. That is, that correcting spelling and grammar inhibits fluency: whereas I believe that correcting spelling and grammar are essential tools in increasing fluency.

Yes I agree peacocks (blimey, can't believe I wrote that!). There is something going wrong somewhere, but from my pov I'd soften your first sentence - '.. why aren't children learning to spell?' well as Bunny keeps saying, they are so it's more that the teaching's not reaching as many as it should. Also I'd still argue it's been proven that more children can read than ever before, so there are some positives out there. People like Bunny and my own experiences of inspiring teachers in my son's school give me hope. You can't damn the whole system imo, but yes it needs some urgent improvement.

... she herself has explained that marking wrong is demoralising....'

Ooh dear, I was going to bow out too....
Objective: to use describing words

This is how a piece of work might look if you mark all the spellings:
Iy went to miy granmuthers little howse.

This is how it would look with positive marking (the bold is yellow highlight):
Iy went to miy granmuthers little howse.
Can you think of a better word than 'little'?

Note to self for phonics lesson: Look again at 'ie' sound - particularly ending y.

Which marking is the child going to understand? Which is getting the child to IMPROVE his/her work? Which marking will encourage the child to write?Which is most demoralising?

Builde & Melanie - would be VERY interested to know if your graduate standards improve in 2-3 years time. These young adults will be the first to be taught daily literacy and numeracy to fairly stringent objectives. Maybe there will be no difference!