I'm beginning to think that job sharing for teachers doesn't work very well in primary school

[flashharriet]

I have 3 children and each of them have had years with job sharing teachers and years with just one class teacher. Having read many education threads on MN over the years, I know how hard it is for teachers with young children to juggle the needs of their own children with the needs of the children they teach and so a lot will opt for part time. But having just looked back at my children's time in primary school to date, I've realised that without exception, their "duffest" years have been those years when they've been taught by job sharers.

I'm now wondering whether part-timers would be better suited to secondary schools where pupils are used to moving around and having a number of different teachers anyway; certainly I had two different teachers each year for English, for example, and it didn't present any problems AFAI can remember. Communication is much harder with job-sharing teachers and IME consistency between job sharers seems to be an issue too.

I'd love it if we could have a good discussion about this and have therefore deliberately not posted in AIBU! But I'd be interested whether others have found this too (posting this thread was prompted by reading Greeny's current thread about trying to deal with two job-sharing teachers) or whether we've just been very unlucky.

If it works well I think it is better. The DCs gain because the teachers put in far more than they should!
I have done job shares, but I make sure that it is a teacher that I can work happily with-there are many that I know I couldn't work with.If I take one on, I go in and observe for a day so that I can fit in and adopt a similar style. You also have to be able to get together to plan and discuss on a regular basis.

As a woman I agree with you, but as a teacher I can see that our department is a ferility ticking timebomb. I do think it would be selfish if we all got pregnant at the same time. We were discussing a rota at lunch, I get first dibs as my ovaries are the most shrivelled.

I dont think for one moment that a crap male teacher would be appointed over a good female teacher. The fact that our department is staffed by mainly female very fertile women suggests that is not the case. However if two candidates have been seen as equal the word is that an older woman or man would get the job. I know when I was interviewed they were torn between me and a man, even though apparantly I blew the man out of the water. KNowing who wanted me and who didn't I have always wondered if my ripe ovaries were the reason.

Surely you want pupils to do better than cope, we have an outstanding team at the moment, our pupils are thriving.

I do agree though about it being sad to loose good teachers. It is very hard balancing the needs to students an those of staff.

It is a lovely school to work in - unless you are ill or you want a baby.

'unless you are ill or want a baby'

Seriously woman WHAT are you thinking? This isn't a good place to work at all. It's a sausage factory - end product looks good, don't ask about the hell that went into getting there.

I'm not surprised your colleague took them to a tribunal. a few more and maybe the school will be in the real world - where women have a lot to give in terms of talent and energy and can still do that after having babies. They just don't have to do it 40 hours a week - and neither do fathers come to that.

my school is about as far removed from a sausage factory as you can get. It is not about not wanting women who have babies, it is about not wanting part time staff ( the same would apply to a man) or to have lots of staff off. I don't agree with it at all, it is something that is causing me some upset but think it is wrong to write off a very special school because of it.

I don't think my school is that unusual to be honest, every school I have worked in has been difficult with staff who are off sick a lot or have found covering maternity leave difficult.

I am glad we are bringing fathers into it ! This is something dp and I have discussed at length. I am going to take the minimum maternity leave and then go back and dp will stay at home. He also enjoys his job but recognises the impact of me not being at work is far greater than him.

But not wanting part time staff is de facto sex discrimination because it disproportionately disadvantages women. I know that isn't the case for your family, but it is for many. You are posting about how your job is dictating the decisions you make about having another child. You know this makes your partner unhappy but you still think 'it's a very special school'.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think their sexist culture needs a kick up the backside tbh!

Covering maternity leave is extremely difficult, especially in my subject, in my area. Covering for sick colleagues is a nightmare and very disruptive for students. The idea that you can just insert a cover/supply teacher and everything carries on as normal is rubbish.

Teaching is a high stress job, and this is one of the (many) reasons why TBH. I would love to work part time. I will if DH's company gets out of the doldrums. But working a three day week would cause all sorts of timetabling problems.

Please note that teachers don't get paid holidays- teachers get an annual salary which is paid monthly. By no fault of the teacher, at least one of these payments will come when not at work- perhaps this happens in other professions too!

Neither are lunch breaks or even playtimes paid- every hour/day is accounted for in a teacher's contract.

Please rid your mind that these are paid holidays as such. The salary is for teaching split into 12.

Whatever happened to supporting other women rather than yet another let's get at teachers thread.

I am and at this comment from violethill

"They put themself before the pupils and colleagues"

What I actually did when moving from FT to PT (4 days) work was put my DAUGHTER first!! I want her to see more of her mother! And yes, you are damn right she comes before pupils and colleagues. In what other profession would you be asked to put your colleagues and "customers" before your own family??

In fact, as several people have already said, rather than inconsiderate money-grabbers taking their mat leaves at times designed to maximise the disruption to YOUR children, you'll find that most PT primary teachers work well over the hours they are paid for, and agonised over the idea of leaving/having children/going PT etc in the first place.

Jobsharing at reception or yr 1 level has worked fine for my dc, but then I don't have children who have any problem with school or being left or change, I can imagine I might feel differently if I did. dd3 currently has two lovely teachers who've worked together for years and do seem to communicate well. I like one more than the other and tend to talk to her mostly.

What you could do to improve things, perhaps have 2 jobsharing teachers take a class for 2 years, so the children have 2 teachers for 2 years. That would mean less change.

Haven't read the whole thread but I will. I am a teacher who did my first ever job share last year. It worked brilliantly and the children got a really good deal.

Why?
although we shared the literacy and the numeracy we were able to juggle the rest of the timetable to ensure that we each taught to our strengths. She was super creative at science teaching for example so she took responsibility for teaching, assessing and reporting on that.

Because we both took communication/continuity/progression v seriously. I did a thorough assessment of the children's learning with me to hand on that information to her. She could adapt the plan and her teaching to extend and support as necessary. Most teacher's wont gather this detailed information until the end of the week or a unit of work and then it is too late for those who didn't get it,

It is entirely dependent on the teacher's involved but for us and our class it worked brilliant and the parents gave us a very emotional goodbye/thanks at the end of the year.

Horrible apostrophe error alert!!!

Teachers involved.

So ashamed

just wanted to post a veiw from the sn world.
dd IS older(secondry) but because of her sn she is younger iynwim.
she has had 2 pt teachers twice. the first time was in primary and it worked really well, both teachers were very different and it gave her more variety. she has 2 this year and I have no worries what so ever,

That is a really good point owlandpussycat

It is amazing that, for some people, when it comes to anything that may affect their own children they suddenly throw all ideals out of the window. Hard fought for rights and entitlements are seen as a mere inconvenience.

It is interesting that many children will have coped amazingly well throughout pre-school/nursery with several teachers and yet once they start school, they suddenly can't cope with more than one?

'I am shock and angry at this comment from violethill

"They put themself before the pupils and colleagues"'What I actually did when moving from FT to PT (4 days) work was put my DAUGHTER first!! I want her to see more of her mother! And yes, you are damn right she comes before pupils and colleagues.

You have totally misread my post.

I actually stated that ALL parents I know put their children before their colleagues/clients/pupils/whoever. That's a given. My children certainly come first.

However, I also believe that as a professional, you have a responsibility to put your children first in such a way as not to impact negatively on others. If you feel that you can only be an effective parent working 4 days a week then fine - but do it in such a way that doesn't impact on others. If that means some give and take, then so be it. In some cases it may mean looking for another job, because not all jobs can be done on 4 days. And actually, 4 days is quite a tricky one, because it's hard to find someone who only wants to work 1 day, so a 3 day/2 day split is probably more reasonable. The issue is really about where someone gets a fulltime job, and then subsequently want s to change their working hours. It can work fine - so long as it's approached professionally. Unfortunately there are some people out there who think the world owes them a job on their terms. I have quite seriously had people come to me trying to dictate which days of the week they want off. It's usually that they want to do a 4 day week with a Weds off because they don't want to work more than 2 days in a row, or they want a Thurs/Fri or Fri/Mon off to get a long weekend. Er... nope. It's a little more complicated than that. How would a school function if every part timer had Weds off?! A school doesn't run according to the wishes of a minority of staff - it's about providing the optimum education for the children.

Job shares work in any profession when the employer handles it well - ensuring proper communication between the 2 employees so that there is continuity.
All my children have had job sharers as teachers and I have no complaints. They were incredibly professional and clearly spent a lot of time communicating with each other. I would see it as a positive in fact.
I am kind of apppalled by the comments on here about people taking the piss, timing maternity leave etc. We have all tried to "time" our pregnancies and for some it works and for others it's a fairly pointless exercise.
But when a person has a baby is a personal decision, not one that needs to be made in consultation with an employer - what a dreadful thought! Hi boss I'm planning to have sex tonight cos it's ovulation time, is that ok with you? We might as well turn the clocks back 30 years and forget about all the equal rights and anti discrimination legislation that has been fought for.

No, sorry, my child comes first, and that's it.

It's nothing to do with being an effective parent (not sure what that is anyway). It's to with achieving the balance between needing to earn money to pay the mortgage and wanting to spend time with your children.

Not all jobs can be done on 4 days - but teaching CAN. And for all of the excellent reasons given above, a good job share arrangement can be better than just one teacher.

A school is run by its management, who presumably wouldn't be making any job-share arrangements that had a negative impact on the school.

And all someone requesting PT can do is request the day(s) they get off - what is wrong with requesting an arrangement that suits you? Or should we all just be martyrs?

Having a baby is a personal decision - totally agree.

Being an employee is not simply a personal decision - it involves a lot of other people - colleagues, employer, clients, pupils.

In an ideal world we could just stop working for a few years and come back FT when the DC were old enough - I don't know anyone who can afford to do that - so this is a compromise.

I agree it needs to change but I don't think it is about attacking women, it is about doing what is best for the students but in doing so its results are sexist to women.

I think it does not help tht good teachers in my subject are thin on the ground and supply would really struggle with the demands of my exam groups. The rest of the department would have to pick up my A Level teaching and we may end up with non specialists teaching GCSE.

I am in my second year at my school ( been teaching for 8 years with a five year gap for dd) I do think that I would be taking the piss to go on maternity leave this year or maybe even next year. I also have a quite challenging tutor group who I have worked hard to whip into shape. I would not want to be reponsible for them losing it with a supply teacher or maternity cover - they are in Year 11. Not wanting to have a baby yet is not about my school's attitude to time off, but about my professionality.

I watched my perfectly behaved grammar stream GCSE group melt into chaos when they had a student teacher, older students do not always react well to change. Although of course at some point if we have another child I will have to say now I am walking away for a few months.

Teaching is a vocation that means at times there are difficult choices to be made.

I agree owlandpussycat about the pay thing, which is why I would not feel guilty about being paid over the summer holidays or working the last few days of a term. It is ridiculous that teachers have to do that to get pay they have earned

Have come back to this to see that the debate has progressed somewhat. I've stated I feel really uncomfortable having these thoughts, for all the reasons already stated. But it's a debate that needs to be had, surely? I'm as far away from being a precious parent as it's possible to be and it seems from this thread as if my children have been unlucky in their experiences. But I defend strongly my right to raise this as an issue to be discussed.

Incidentally, caz10 said:

"What I actually did when moving from FT to PT (4 days) work was put my DAUGHTER first!! I want her to see more of her mother! And yes, you are damn right she comes before pupils and colleagues. In what other profession would you be asked to put your colleagues and "customers" before your own family??"

Well, mine tbh. My job is client driven and they want you to be available pretty much all the time. It's very intense and specialised and doesn't lend itself to part time very easily. So with a very heavy heart, I had to give it up after having children. I'd LOVE to do it part time but in the client's position, I wouldn't want a part timer working on my project because of the lack of continuity. Part time work is the holy grail but it's not always achievable, however much we might want it to be.

My DS has had job-sharing teachers over the years (he is now year 5) and he's adapted well. DD1 has started Reception with job-sharing teachers and, so far, so good. Neither seem upset or have a particular preference for one teacher over another. I'm sure they are all professionals and have their own strengths, it's more than a like/dislike relationship.

My children have had job sharers in primary school.

It never caused a problem for them or me.

Having two teachers who are commited and communicate well is surely an advantage?

Children seem to adapt very well to the arrangement IME.

I would rather my child had two teachers who were able to stay on after having their children than a stream of part time locums.

Give teachers good working conditions and they are more likely to stay on. Make things difficult for working mothers and we are more likely to have short term contracts and lack of continuity surely?

Havn't read thread but will do so.

I have a job which requires me to put it above my family/personal life more times than not.

Agree with whoever said the 4:1 day split must be difficult whereas 3:2 (?2.5 each) might make things easier TBH I would expect the teacher to have to compromise and do something less desirable on the 4th day if others more knowledgable decide that is better.

TBH I also suspect there is a big diference between doing this for some age children and for other years one of mine had a job share at nursery (pre-school year) and it worked really well whereas for A levels prob not suc a good idea