I'm beginning to think that job sharing for teachers doesn't work very well in primary school

[flashharriet]

I have 3 children and each of them have had years with job sharing teachers and years with just one class teacher. Having read many education threads on MN over the years, I know how hard it is for teachers with young children to juggle the needs of their own children with the needs of the children they teach and so a lot will opt for part time. But having just looked back at my children's time in primary school to date, I've realised that without exception, their "duffest" years have been those years when they've been taught by job sharers.

I'm now wondering whether part-timers would be better suited to secondary schools where pupils are used to moving around and having a number of different teachers anyway; certainly I had two different teachers each year for English, for example, and it didn't present any problems AFAI can remember. Communication is much harder with job-sharing teachers and IME consistency between job sharers seems to be an issue too.

I'd love it if we could have a good discussion about this and have therefore deliberately not posted in AIBU! But I'd be interested whether others have found this too (posting this thread was prompted by reading Greeny's current thread about trying to deal with two job-sharing teachers) or whether we've just been very unlucky.

It sounds like communication is the main problem there Greensleeves, which I do agree is essential for a job share to work.

And whilst I know there are some issues with some teachers in some schools, these can be solved and job share can work well. And it HAS to work. Primary teachers are entitled to apply for flexible working, so schools have to make this work.

I am going to be very brave and out myself as a job sharing reception teacher. I think that this arrangement works very well at the moment for several reasons, some of which could be adopted elsewhere.

1. I get on very well with my job share, we are constantly on the phone to each other and most importantly we have similar teaching styles.

1. We have an experienced nursery nurse who is full time and adds consistency.

1. Our class NEVER have supply cover. We cover each others training courses, illness, ppa time and so on.

1. We have different strengths and interests - one being very musical and arty, the other a real computer wizz and good at scientific things.

1. We challenge each other to look at children differently and find the best in them.

1. I still have enough energy to teach on a Friday afternoon!

I agree with the OP. Jobshares were rare when first child started reception and now are more than half of all the classes (two class entry so 14 classes). thee is a lot of to-ing and fro-ing as various teachers go on theri maternity leaves, and for some it just appears to be a fill in job between mat leaves.

Sorry????????!!!!!!!!

Teachers are the only people who are treated this badly on Mumsnet. If this attitude was directed towards women in any other profession the poster would receive an almost unanimous flaming.

As a secondary teacher, I'd say it's not always plain sailing at this level either.

OK, so the pupils have a range of different teachers anyway, but it can make things a lot more difficult if you then split one subject into two or even more teachers.

The problem at secondary level lies not in the fact that people work part time per se, but rather that they want to block their hours into set days eg they want to work Mon Tues Wed, and have the rest of the week off. This inevitably leads to split classes, because obviously the timetable spreads each subject across the week.

I think it can disadvantage the pupils and other colleagues, who then have to share the split classes with them. At least with a primary jobshare, you have two willing partners; the complexity of secondary timetabling means that full timers often end up having the odd class just once or twice a week which creates a greater workload than just teaching their own classes all the time and is also unfair on the kids.

It's a tricky one, because on the one hand, you want flexible working to be a possibility, but I really do believe in certain jobs it can make life very difficult. At the end of the day, the school has to consider the pupils first.

KittyCorncrake

I agree with glinda, there are not many professions where it would be acceptable to start talking about part time working and women in such a negative way.

God forbid a teacher should get pregnant and disrupt the education system. Better if teachers all decided to go without a family life and dedicate themselves to other people's children. Perhaps they should be like priests and take an oath of celibacy

Has anyone actually said that though?

Part of being professional is recognising that you have a professional responsibility. That means give and take, and not always playing the system to your own advantage.

Yes, of course teachers should be have their own children if they want them.

But when you see (as I've done) extremes such as a teacher who has been off for almost a year maternity leave, deciding to return to work mid-July, a couple of weeks before the long summer holiday, thereby disrupting the routine for kids (not to mention the cover teacher who has taught them since Sept!) you can't help but feel some people take the piss. I've also seen teachers who think part time hours should revolve around their own desires (eg 'I only want to work 3 days and I'd like Thursdays and fridays off so I have a long weekend please') - yeap, some people really do think like that. They put themself before the pupils and colleagues.

I believe as working parents (and I think it's important to make this a parent issue, not just mothers) we all put our own children first, but not at the expense of being able to do the job required professionally and properly. If a job share doesn't work out because of communication issues, the other partner not being up to scratch or whatever reason, then it's wrong that it should be allowed to continue.

Job sharing is more common than not at my dd's primary.

I think it is fine - both teachers get to teach to their strengths, the teachers are fresher, and a child is not stuck all week with a teacher they don't like much.

I think TIRED teachers are the real problem. Teaching primary needs a lot of energy, and if you have come back from mat leave full time and your own child is not sleeping well this is a disaster for all concerned. Ditto for some new teachers who find it all too much.

Violethill, I said it as a response to kittycorncrake who suggested that some teachers seem to just use teaching as a stop gap between maternity leave.

'But when you see (as I've done) extremes such as a teacher who has been off for almost a year maternity leave, deciding to return to work mid-July, a couple of weeks before the long summer holiday, thereby disrupting the routine for kids (not to mention the cover teacher who has taught them since Sept!) you can't help but feel some people take the pis'

I disagree with you on this, they are not taking the piss, they are taking their entitlement. In other jobs people can choose when to return to work. Why should a teacher have to go without pay for at least 6 weeks just because her maternity leave didn't end on the date that fitted in with term dates?! If only family planning was that easy

'I believe as working parents (and I think it's important to make this a parent issue, not just mothers) we all put our own children first, but not at the expense of being able to do the job required professionally and properly'

You may not want to make it about women and prefer to talk about parents, but in reality we are talking about women, especially as there is an issue around teachers 'going off' on maternity, which at present, still stands as a female entitlement. Added to that, in primary schools it is primarily staffed by women. And lets be even more reaistic, there are more women than men going part time to care for their DC.

'If a job share doesn't work out because of communication issues, the other partner not being up to scratch or whatever reason, then it's wrong that it should be allowed to continue.'

I agree, if anyone isn't doing their job well then it shouldn't be allowed to continue, but that doesn't mean that having a job share is at fault, it means someone isn't doing their job well enough.

The alternative to allowing job shares, for those that want it, is that a lot of very good teachers leave the profession or continue to work full time and be very unhappy about it.

Tombli, I know one teacher (a good friend of mine) who freely admits that she timed her maternity leave so that she goes back a couple of weeks before the summer holiday so that she gets paid over the holidays. It's not a coincidence, she planned it that way. She's a bit shamefaced about it, but she wants the money (understandably) - and she says it's a common occurrence. I'm not sure how you could legislate against this without infringing people's maternity rights though.

I think we should regard the primary school experiment in flexible working as a testbed - some things will work, some won't. Parents are entitled to speak up when they think something structural is adversely affecting their children. If governing bodies listen to parents' concerns and put time and thought into addressing them, we might find that primary schools become marvellous examples of how well flexible working and maternity leave can be integrated into the working environment, and we'll all benefit.

Communication is key, and schools' management has got to build this in in order for it to be successful- handover time, joint planning time, even some team teaching. so its not just down to the individual teachers, but the whole ethos of the school. Also, there needs to be consistent school policies for behaviour, so it is easy to know where you (the child)are.

I teach secondary and we do not allow job sharers, it is a fab school to work in but very few women stay if they fall pregnant, have a baby or want to have a baby. A teacher did recently take the school to a tribunal and won the right to job share but I bet it will not be a bed of roses for her.

I would love a second child, but do know that it will probably be the end of my career in school I love. Without being arrogant I also know that I am an outstanding teacher and will be a loss to the school

interesting discussion. like quite a few others i feel somewhat guilty saying this i just think - particularly people facing roles - that some jobs just arent suited to job sharing.

my other experience is my GP's surgery. 3 working mothers, all part time, but seem to work the most confusing shifts which change pretty much every week. ykwim, monday morning 9.30 to 11.45 wednesday afternoon 2-4 friday lunchtimes sort of thing. you cant keep up with the changes and as a consequence there is no continuity of care. which is fine if you are not a regular user but dd has been a poorly baby since day one and i dont think we've ever seen the same doctor in a row and i think we have seen our actualy alloted doctor once or twice at the most.

I am an employer in the private sector and i have to say if we felt customer service would be compromised then a job share would not be allowed. However it feels in this case (and i'll get jumped on here i know) that a persons "right" to jobshare is prioritised over what might be best for the pupil/patient/service user whatever.

surely thats wrong?

Tombliboobs - I understand what you are saying - maybe it's the detail of the entitlement that's at fault. I'm referring to teachers who choose to come back to work a couple of weeks short of a full year off, which is extremely disruptive. And you can bet your life they would never return a couple of weeks before the full year if it was mid November! They do it in July because a) Year 13 and Year 11 have all left so the hard work of all the exam prep has gone, and b) so they can get 6 weeks full pay for the holidays.

Yes, they are acting within the regulations, yes, it's their entitlement, but arguably it's also taking the piss.

Legislation is weighted very favourably towards the employee in this regard, which is good if people behave professionally, but a nightmare if they don't. I'm senior management - I see it from both sides. A teacher these days can go on ML, the school doesn't know how long they'll be off for, it's impossible always to recruit someone to cover a full year, because the post holder might decide to return early, but on the other hand, they might hum and hah for weeks before telling the employer when they intend to return. And then after a year they might return 5 months pregnant with number two. Yes, it's their entitlement - but that doesn't make it fair on the kids.

Voilethill I don't think most teachers do think like that tbh.

In my department there are a few of us who want children some of whom have been putting it off for years because the time was not right for school. I have told dp we can wait until my tutor group have left school as I don't want to disrupt them, he thinks I will then fall in love with some cute year 7s and we will have to wait another 5 years! THere is always a GCSE class or A level group that you feel guilty about leaving.

One of or teachers gave birth last night after a full day of teaching, we were half heartedly joking about her being held up as a role model.

Often in a secondary school if teachers come back few days at then end of the year they are given supply work to do rather than their classes.

How do you mean 'job sharer' wrt secondary teaching?

Violethill, it is the entitlement that makes it difficult, If someone can come back 2 weeks before the end of the term to get paid over the holidays, I don't know many people who can afford not to take advantage of that. There are lots of times where the profession makes things more difficult, more unfavourable, less 'easy' than in others, so there is a kind of give and take going on I believe.

I just don't see it in such a negative way as you and I think the fact that it makes your job more difficult is making you see it as a personal issue against individual teachers rather than the system. I don't deny it must be a pita for you to manage, but surely this is offset by retaining outstanding teachers.
This also links in with costs as recruiting new staff is not without its own costs and problems.

yellowvan is spot on in saying that the school need to plan and accommodate for job shares if they want them to work properly, just as they have to plan for all other aspects of school life.

I disgreee dd1 has been taught my a job share in Year 2 - and it was the best year ever

Do you mean me?

Sorry my typing is all over the place as it is freezing in here.

If someone wants to come back from maternity leave part time they are told to take a run and jump. Hence every year we have teachers leave with the sole intention of going elsewhere, working for while and then getting pregnant. Interestingly mainly to independant and grammar schools. I also know that female teachers are not appointed in case they get pregnant.

This is such a sore topic for me, trying to work out when I have earned enough stripes to go on maternity leave without pissing everyone off. The last time I just handed my notice in, which was probably not very smart!

I am the breadwinner in my house, it is that way because i find teaching so all consuming that dp has to work part time so dd does not turn ferrel. I could not go without pay over summer so would have to time my pregnancy. It all drives dp mad.

Sounds like you're working at a school with a highly illegal employment policy Morosky

I think a job-share in teaching works just like anywhere else - it's shit if the participants don't do it properly and the management don't support it properly and it's brilliant if they all do. My DD was in Y2 last year and had jobsharers, it was absolutely fine there were no problems at all. But that's because it is a great school and they're both great teachers.

I bet lots of schools, if not employers, do it they just don't admit it.

In fact in every school I have worked in they have spoken about the male female balance bt part of that is worrying about women going on maternity leave. If I think abot our department we have 4 men and 5 women all of whom want to have children soon. What would happen if we all got pregnant together.

sorry my u is sticking.

If you all got pregnant at the same time then your school would cope, your colleagues would cope, your pupils would cope. You are an employee not a slave! Personally I would not feel comfortable in working in an environment that denies a woman a job because she looks like she'll be getting upo the duff

With regard to the op - my daughters have nearly always been in mixed classes with job share teachers. If a job share wasn't possible our school would have lost aroun 8 or 9 excellent members of staff in the time my kids have been there. Because they do job shares they have retained them and the only two who've left did so for promotion or retirement. I happen to think that level of retention is very good for the school and therefore my children. Both dd2's teachers are pregnant so she will be having a new teacher (or two) later this year. I have every confidence in the head to do his best for my child and I rejoice in the joy that those women have. It's all good.

Quite Northernlurker.

I wouldn't want to send my children there either - particularly my DD.