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Original poster

Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

625 replies

seeker · 08/09/2009 14:32

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 09/09/2009 11:20

DP, there are doubtless schools that turn a blind eye to the current law requiring that the majority of assemblies are 'broadly christian'. A lot of secondaries I'm sure, but most primaries still seem to adhere to assembly with hymns and a prayer. The law actually only applies to state schools but annoyingly enough a lot of private ones seem to follow the herd on this.

Unfortunately its primary age where children are most impressionable and not want to challenge what authority figures tell them.

SolidGoldBrass · 09/09/2009 11:20

Though I have heard that schools can apply for an exemption to the have-to-do-christian-worship if it can be shown that the majority of pupils in the school are not even nominally Christian.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 11:48

seeker, i don't agree with you (to end this debate) we are a christian country, our schools should be allowed some tradition, you want to take away the christian ethos and replace it with what.? nothing...?

solidgold;...i suggest you home educate, from what i've seen of you you don't wont your child being taught about any religion.

LadyGlencoraPalliser · 09/09/2009 11:53

SGB - don't bother raising it at the PTA, they have nothing to do with such matters. If you want to influence school policy become a governor.

GrimmaTheNome · 09/09/2009 12:02

DP, please define 'christian ethos'. Its one of those terms that gets bandied about but what does it mean and how does it differ from a humanist ethos? Ethics is not the sole preserve of any religion.

Personally I don't mind a bit of Christian tradition - the nativity play/carol service/harvest festival - to go alongside the RE. I don't mind a bit of other traditions either. That's all part of the rich fabric of life.

Original poster
seeker · 09/09/2009 12:32

Happy to have traditions. Nativity Play, Diwali, Kwanza, St Patrick's Day, Shrove Tuesday, Eid, Christmas, St Geroge's Day, May Day, Beltane, World Aids Day - the more celebrations the better in my book! Just no praying or thanking God for stuff that I don't believe he had anything to do with.

Daftpunk, if you read the thread you will discover than no one has said at any point that children should not be taught ABOUT religion. It is the enfoced practice of religion that I, and many others object to.

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 09/09/2009 12:51

In fact the original poll question was :

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

Did you actually read it, DP? Nearly everyone has answered yes to the whole thing with only a few caveats about wanting philosophy and critical thinking in addition.

vodafonewillow · 09/09/2009 13:17

Yes - I hate religion in schools. I'm quite happy for them to learn about all the different world religions at some stage in school but thats the maximim that I would like.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 13:53

sorry, i tend to rush through some threads only reading the posts that catch my eye, a few people said they would be happy for religion not to taught at all.. i guess that's their take on a truely "secular" school, it certainly is mine...i was replying to them.

seeker, i can't believe you want secular schools but are happy to have the christmas nativity play..?

you have to remember that i'm catholic, i will defend the catholic school to the death, however, if i wasn't religious i would be happy for my dc to sing a few hymns in the morning...why not?...this is england, we are a christian country. i am happy for my dc to learn about other religions, absolutely essential, but you cant take away our christian tradition and then spend lessons talking about ramadan and the festival of lights....you either have secular schools (don't talk about any religion)..or you don't.

GrimmaTheNome · 09/09/2009 14:09

DP, please stop setting up false arguments. No one has remotely suggested that we should "take away our christian tradition and then spend lessons talking about ramadan and the festival of lights"

'secular' in this context does NOT mean that religion is a taboo subject to learn about.

It means that state schools should not be run by religious institutions, they should not dictate the admissions policies and that the school day should not include religious worship.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 14:40

not all state schools are run by religious institutions...not sure on the stats but i guess faith schools are the minority.

the school day should include religious worship, it does no harm what so ever, and i don't have to produce research to back that up..

i think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

GrimmaTheNome · 09/09/2009 14:55

not all state schools are run by religious institutions...not sure on the stats but i guess faith schools are the minority.

True nationally, in mainland UK. But in some areas (mine included) all the nearest schools are faith of one sort or another. And in Northern Ireland most schools are still proddy or catholic ... really not helpful to integration of the two divided communities.

the school day should include religious worship, it does no harm what so ever, and i don't have to produce research to back that up..

Oh well if we don't have to produce research then I'll just say it does have harmful effects.

i think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

sure, so long as I have the last word

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 15:50

how could i refuse you that....

prettybird · 09/09/2009 16:49

Our school does still have a nativity play: part of the Christmas Assembly, in which they describe what "some people believe" (they do also comment on the fact that for most some people, Christmas is now simply a shopping festival ).

It does the Eid and Diwali assemblies in the same way and as a result, I have learnt a lot more about the religions of the people in my local community.

That is waht religious education should be about.

Fortunately, our primary school is too chock-a-block to fit everyone into the hall so they manage to avoid the need to have daily assemblies

GreensleevesFlouncedLikeAKnob · 09/09/2009 16:53

dp said "this is england, we are a christian country."

I think this is the bone of contention

I would venture that we are NOT a Christian country in 2009, and that a majority of those who live and work here neither belong to the Christian faith nor wish for their children to be compulsorily involved in it

UnquietDad · 09/09/2009 16:56

You can argue, I think, that we are "culturally" Christian, but this is by no means an argument for the active propagation of Christian mythical beliefs as if they were real in the school environment.

GreensleevesFlouncedLikeAKnob · 09/09/2009 17:02

Hmmm, I am not sure I would even allow "culturally Christian" - it's a meaningless term IMO

you could argue that we are still "culturally pagan", as most of the surviving elements of Christian tradition which survive into our secular lives are the ones which were piggybacked onto pagan customs in the first place

you could argue even more convincingly that we are "culturally capitalist North Americans" - even the hardcore Christians among us - if you really looked at our consumer habits and social assumptions

IMO the role of Christian doctrine in our schools should be purely as something to be studied from a detached anthropological viewpoint - this is what Christians believe. Just as we know that Galen believed in the four humours of the body, or that the Dogons believed they were visited by aliens from the second planet of Sirius

Facts are facts and beliefs are beliefs - it's anachronistic and a little embarrassing that we still have state-funded schools which make children pray and recite prayers and teach the Resurrection as a factual narrative

GreensleevesFlouncedLikeAKnob · 09/09/2009 17:03

horrible rambling inarticulate post

have just spent afternoon 'integrating' feral new intake at nursery school and am feeling rather ragged

Snorbs · 09/09/2009 17:03

There was an interesting poll (article here) that suggested that only 33% of the population described themselves as a "religious person" and that covered all religions, not just Christianity.

Interestingly, 84% of those polled saw religion as "a cause of division and tension", too.

Overmydeadbody · 09/09/2009 17:04

yes to seeker's OP

Overmydeadbody · 09/09/2009 17:06

If children weren't brainwashed into Christianity in schools Britain would soon stop being a Christian country, and that would be a good thing.

sfxmum · 09/09/2009 17:06

secular absolutely but children need to be educated if only for cultural reasons, points of reference etc

for specifically religious schools they should go private

in answer to OP

UnquietDad · 09/09/2009 17:07

I know what you mean, greensleeves, although I remember reading that Richard Dawkins is happy to call himself a "cultural Christian", by which he means he doesn't want to ban nativity plays and is quite happy to sing hymns at Christmas, and all that sort of thing.

The vast majority of our (pre-modern) architecture, classical music, art, etc. wouldn't exist in its current form if it were not for the influence of Christianity.

All of that doesn't change the fact that it's a myth system, and has no more right than any other myth system to be taught as fact in schools! But every right to be taught in the way that Greek, Egyptian and Norse myth would be.

ChasingSquirrels · 09/09/2009 17:11

yes to OP

GreensleevesFlouncedLikeAKnob · 09/09/2009 17:12

the point about the architecture and cultural history etc always puz\zles me slightly

of course there is Christian influence in it, because for nearly two centuries the political Church OWNED western society and every creative or constructive project undertaken during that time reflects that - it was virtually illegal to paint a picture or build a public edifice without a Christian focus

human creativity and ingenuinity would still have evolved nonetheless - there would still BE great architecture and beautiful music etc had we not had to produce it all under the aegis of the Church

saying that we are culturally Christian on this basis is a bit like saying that post-Blitz Coventry was "culturally Nazi"