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Education

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Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

625 replies

seeker · 08/09/2009 14:32

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

OP posts:
GreensleevesFlouncedLikeAKnob · 09/09/2009 17:13

and Dawkins is a dickhead poser who has made his point and would now say anything to sell books

UnquietDad · 09/09/2009 17:15

Oh, there would, but it wouldn't be the same. I'm on your side (as you know) just trying to dig a bit into what people actually mean when they say "a Christian country".

seeker · 09/09/2009 18:03

"seeker, i can't believe you want secular schools but are happy to have the christmas nativity play..?"

Why not? I'm happy to have the Easter Bunny make his rounds as well. We make an enormous fuss of the Tooth Fairy in our family - and we also have the Advent Calendar Fairy, the Christmas Pyjama fairy and the Asparagus Fairy.

I bake shamrock shaped biscuits for St Patrick's day, dress my children up as St George on April 23 (a particular tradition at our school) and we make lanterns for Diwali. I see no problem with doing all this snd not wanting my children to pray at school.

How would you feel, daftpunk, if your children had to face Mecca and pray to Allah every morning, or make offerings to the Mother Goddess?

OP posts:
WowOoo · 09/09/2009 18:31

Yes to initial Q.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 20:48

seeker;

if i went to live in an islamic country i would accept it, i am not living in an islamic country i am living in England, and i would like the English tradition of christian hymns kept.

seeker · 09/09/2009 21:28

Does it not matter to you at all that I and my children are not Christian, but that we have no choice but to take part in Christian worship? Can you seriously not see any problem at all with that???

OP posts:
daftpunk · 09/09/2009 21:43

seeker;

i can see your point of view, i honestly can, but the vast majority of parents don't have a problem with it, (the parents i know anyway)

what do you think will happen to your children .?...what are you major concerns.?

seeker · 09/09/2009 21:48

I just don't want them to have to pretend to belive something they don't, or to be hypocrites. If your faith matters to you, then I don't understand why you would want them to either.

And I hate to point it out to you, but as far as I can see you are the only person on this thread who thinks it's OK to make it impossible to attend a state school without praying to a Christian God!

OP posts:
UnquietDad · 09/09/2009 22:15

It's not so much that people "think something will happen" to their children.

Faith/atheism-related arguments are so frustrating. It's one of those situations where, in order to get it, you already need to have got it. Standing outside a religion, on the outside looking in, you can see it is all a load of mythical claptrap - not necessarily unpleasant or unworthy mythical claptrap (although it has been used for unpleasant and unworthy aims). There is no more earthly reason for it to be part of school life any more than there is for Flat Earth-ism to be.

And yet, and yet... It continues. Because to secularise education is somehow seen as some great, unspeakable reform, some horrendous left-wing action which seeks to rip the heart out of British culture. Until we get over this idea, it will never happen.

Snorbs · 09/09/2009 22:19

DP, you're a church-attending Catholic whose DCs go to a Catholic school. Pardon me if I appear presumptuous but I can't help but suspect the majority of other parents you know (in RL rather than here) are religious. If so it would not be surprising if most of those have no problem with prayers in school. But it's hardly representative.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 09/09/2009 22:20

Had a drink and wandering in late...

It gets on my tits that my DD can go to no local schools. Primary that is. 3 in walking distance but no, I will need to bus or drive due to being of the "wrong" religious bent. All primary schools, if funded by the state, should be open to everyone. We should go back to local children attending nearest school, which aids community cohesion, playmates on doorstep, blah blah. Ditch the religious entry guidelines. And the league tables. Would make things better all round.

Secondary - religious schools IMO indoctrinate children into beliefs and behaviours which are not actually in step with our society and sometimes can be pretty harmful. I can expand on that one if requested, I think.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 22:22

but we're a christian country seeker, children have been singing hymns at assembles for 100's of years......what do you want to replace that with..? the head teacher singing frank sinatras my way or something.?...you are offering no real alternative.

it's tradition, we have to keep it.

i think you're wrong to take prayer away from children..."oh my god" is probably one of the most used expressions in the world....everyone says it...we all have our own little god we talk to.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 22:27

UQD;...it is lefties behind this, they want to rip the heart out of our schools.

Snorbs;....i mix mainly with other catholics that's true, but i know lots of non-religious people, i've never heard them moaning about hymns..

ilovepiccolina · 09/09/2009 22:27

I think it's really sad to hear you say the things you do about Christianity. My heart sinks when I read that it should be taught as a set of myths. When I was little I loved being told that I had a Heavenly Father who loved me, and angels who were watching over me, and so do my dch.

I also feel that Christianity, (and other religions) if taught properly, can be a sound basis for life. And by properly I mean, not too airy-fairy 'we-want-to-please-everyone so we won't mention creation, the virgin birth, the resurrection etc. Without these Christianity loses its uniqueness as a way of saving life, forgiveness of sins etc.

Children need to be told "This is right, that is wrong". At some point they will need to ask themselves if a particular course of action is right or not. If they've had a sound religious upbringing, they will know. As an example, I know someone who will not forgive another person's 'tresspasses against her' and has become bitter from harbouring a grudge, when Christian teaching will tell her she'll be happier if she just lets it go.

So, I would like to see children taught a belief system. Moslem parents - Islam. Jewish - Judaism. Buddhist or whatever, as appropriate. Otherwise, here in the UK, Christianity. Everywhere, every age, every culture, has a religion. Why's that, do you think? We've just drifted away from ours, replaced it with Science. But science doesn't comfort or instruct like Christianity. Children taught a religion will have the basics to guide them through life, and when they get to teenage years they will decide if they actually believe the 'stories' or not.

Number one teaching should be 'Love thy neighbour as thyself'. That means love his neighbour teoo, and everyone accross the world, as you do yourself. Wouldn't it be amazing if everyone did?

I wonder how many young people who go off the rails - end up directionless, and in prison - were instructed as Christians?

Now I'm off to namechange!!!

AvengingGerbil · 09/09/2009 22:30

DP, you need to get your history right. There were no schools for the vast majority of children until after 1870, so hymn-singing has not been an option for hundreds of years.

If you want community singing in schools, fine, but there is no need for it to be religious, or in the 'assembly', which could perfectly well take the format of 'non-religious moral thought for the day' followed by school/community notices, presentation by children.

And if you think that the ubiquity of breaking the whichever number Commandment it is (taking the Lord's name in vain) is justification for keeping prayer in schools, then I for one can't see how this can be a rational discussion.

noideawhereIamgoing · 09/09/2009 22:41

"When I was little I loved being told that I had a Heavenly Father who loved me, and angels who were watching over me"

How do you think the poor deprived kids who are being abused and living a pretty shitty life feel? Has their heavenly father got the blinkers on - where are their angels?

Nice for you, sounds like you had a lovely childhood. Why wasn't God protecting those poor children who didn't.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 22:43

ilove....really good post.

AG...ykwim...

piscesmoon · 09/09/2009 22:46

I agree with OP, but there isn't a hope until we are a secular country. Church and state are intertwined and it isn't that simple to separate them.

dogonpoints · 09/09/2009 22:49

god help us if we struggle to find songs good enough to replace hymns

seeker · 09/09/2009 22:51

Actually, daftpunk, I love hymns - particularly the proper old fashioned traditionaly ones. Why are you talking about hymns when i'm asking you about prayer? And children being told as fact that Jseus died for them and od made the world?

OP posts:
teamcullen · 09/09/2009 23:06

tinofspam please expand. Ihave a DD in catholic secondary school and about to send DS to one too. Both beautiful and very grounded individuals.

daftpunk · 09/09/2009 23:08

hymns are prayers to music seeker..

we will never agree on this, i'm catholic, you're a non-believer...we could be throwing posts back at each other all night, i'd rather open a bottle of wine and chill out..

you should let your children pray, it's not a bad thing, they can pray to any god they like...

you know there has been some research done on this, alot of people turn to god when faced with difficult situations...people pray for strenght, for guidance...it's not a sign of weakness.

seeker..i need some sleep...

been really nice talking to you...

UnquietDad · 09/09/2009 23:11

The idea that this is somehow the work of "lefties" who want to destroy British culture would be screamingly funny if it were not so paranoid. I guarantee that you get left-wing and right-wing Christians just as much as you get atheists from all ends of the political spectrum.

As for ilovepiccolina's post, it makes me sad and frustrated (again) that anyone following one particular belief system can think that their form of moral instruction is the only one capable of demonstrating right from wrong and bringing up children to be good citizens. It's actually rather insulting to the parents who choose to bring their children up in households free of superstition.

LovelyTinOfSpam · 09/09/2009 23:13

GCSE coursework poem "you are a baby about to be aborted. How do you feel?"

Only sex education, you'll find out when you're married. Re contraception, rythm method.

Result, one of top girls secondary schools in country having a totally disproportionate rate of pregnancy. And no, they weren't married. So they had sinned and it was all their own fault.

I think our brightest girls deserve better than that.

And bye the bye, I noticed that there was very little provision for studying maths or science. All arts and languages. Interesting.

Snorbs · 09/09/2009 23:15

ilovepiccolina, you seem to be suggesting that one needs a religion to form a moral structure. What utter rot. The Ethic of Reciprocity works just as well if one believes in an invisible man in the sky or not.

Incidentally, did you know that Pol Pot went to Catholic school? It's a funny old world...

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