Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

[seeker]

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

They can learn about religion say, one year before learning about Hitler.

No need to do it as a 4 year old when they are learning to read and write.

Daftpunk, you're not doing a great job of demonstrating that religion gives people a better understanding of humanity - or logic, or higher cognitive functions - with your postings.
Given your past form it's possible you're being witless for effect (though I can't help thinking it doesn;t take much to reveal the inherent stupidity of the average religious mind) but when you can't tell the difference between teaching children about religion, which is necessary for them to understand history, geography and politics, and forcing them to participate in superstitious rituals then you are not really managing a proper argument, are you?

DP, how can calling for all schools to be secular be any more divisive than having some schools specially set aside for the followers of a particular religion?

Calling for the end to segregation and special treatment in state education is an end in itself. Jealousy is not needed as a motive.

Finally, if it's so important for religion to be diffused through the faithful's day (as you seem to be arguing as a point in favour of faith schools), what jobs are these children going to get when they grow up? Apart from actually working in churches/mosques/synagogues etc, what professions are there where religion can be as ever-present as you seem to claim is necessary in school?

"why are we fighting a war in iraq"

"er, not sure...cant mention religion"

"what's all this about Henry the v111 and the catholic church"

"shut up"

solidgold...some people don't want religion taught in schools at all....that's impossible.

That silly, you teach about judaism but the children don't have to take part in jewish prayers (or christian ones)

The children should still do RE but no hymn, prayers before lunch etc

DaftPunk, these issues are about history and politics, not belief.

I'm an athiest. I have a degree in religious studies. The two are not incompatible. This is because I studied religions as social, cultural and historical entities, not as a belief system in which I was required to invest.

but doing RE would not be a secular school would it..?

secular schools are impossible,..if you ban the teaching of religion you might as well ban teaching history.

Of course children can learn about religions.
(later than four though).

Daftpunk, what happens is you teach about religions. You learn about the belief system, how it was developed, how it fits into history and how it links up with other belief systems.

It could be argued that this is a far better way of teaching our children about religion because there is not discussion about who is right (us) and who is wrong (them). If you invest in a belief system, you must, by definition, consider all other belief systems to be wrong in some way. Hence the problem of having children whose belief system is different that the school one included in a school. Imagine all those Muslim children in a Catholic school being told sublty (and not so sublty, I went to a Catholic school, I remember) that they are, of course, allowed to believe what ever thy like, but the only path to eternal life is through Jesus.

Surely it is far better to teach our children "this is what Catholics believe, this is what Muslims believe, this is what Jews believe, this is how Islam and Christianity have their roots in Judaeism" etc. No one is right, no one is wrong, no one is expected to buy into one of the belief systems in order to understand it. Everyone is included.

We'd be better off teaching the history of man and philosophy than religion as a subject.
Give them perspective about how we got to where we are today and where we descend from culturally.

Learning the history of the alphabet and maths should help to dispel some of the myths that the West is the epitome of advanced civilisation for a start.

Secular schools does not mean the absence of religious education, it means no worship or religious affiliation at all. Though why in this day and age we would require religious education unless children are choosing priesthood is beyond me

DP, if you cannot grasp the difference between a secular school that has non-religious assemblies (which the majority here want), and the complete evisceration of history and social studies to avoid any mention of religion (which only you have mentioned) then you're either clumsily trolling or you've been listening to too many fundamentalists.

My post was in response to the OP.

At ds' school, RME (Relgious and Moral Education) is taught in the way that Slug suggests in her final paragraph.

As an atheist (brought up nominally Christian) I am conformtable with that. The school is over 60% ethinic minorities (majorityof whom are Muslim) so plays a very delicate balancing act - but I think so does very well.

The sad thing is that there are one or two parents that still objject to that and object to any of the Muslim kids being taught about other faiths. Fortunately, they are very much in the minority.

slug;

that's the thing, i don't have a problem with muslims, hindus, whoever,... whatever gets you through the night.....fine by me.

the fact that i am religious makes me understand them more actually.

i think everyone should know about different religions, absolutely vital, and should be taught in all schools.

i know this is also about prayers & hymnes at moring assembly,....i don't see that it's a major problem, don't think i'd mind even if i wasn't religious.

"i know this is also about prayers & hymnes at moring assembly,....i don't see that it's a major problem, don't think i'd mind even if i wasn't religious."

So, even though you are religious, you wouldn't mind if your DCs went to a school where they had (say) Hindu prayers every morning?

"don't think i'd mind even if i wasn't religious."

daftpunk - so presumably you wouldn't mind now if your children were expected to sing songs in assembly denying the existence of God and celebrating atheism? For those of us who are atheists this is just the same as our dc having to sing hymns.

oops - cross posts Snorbs!

snorbs;

help me out here....what is a secular school..?

is it one where religion isn't taught..?

i thought it was...happy to be put right.

No not a school where religion isn't taught but one where the over-riding ethos of the school doesn't belong to any religion. Unfortunately non-denominational state schools in this country promote christianity whether they are church schools or not.

So you've been arguing for several pages without actually knowing what we're talking about. Despite the fact that the terms of the discussion have been defined on several occasions.

Surely secular schools would be better for the church anyway.
It's disrespectful to have large numbers of children worshipping god when their families don't believe or are ambivalent.
It mocks the beliefs of those who do believe imo

er, no seeker, because i know a school where moring prayers and hymns don't take place...there is no over-riding religious ethos.

not a primary school i should add.

so what would you describe that school as seeker..?

no hymns...no prayers...

would be happy to link you the school, but would give away too much RL info about me.

At the moment, because schools - even non denominational schools - are not secular, they are required by law to have assemblies that are "broadly Christian in nature". This is because the "establishment" is Christian (I do not want to say Church of England, as I am in Scotland so that is therefore not appropriate up here).

A secular school could and should teach about the various religions, the strucutre of their beleifs and the moral codes involved. This is also a good way of teaching "morality" - a sense of right and wrong.

I would call it a school that is breaking the law, daftpunk. Under the Education Acts, state schools are obliged to organize assemblies that are "broadly Christian in nature"