Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

[seeker]

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

Aaaargh.

dp, the whole point we have been trying to make and clearly not succeeding in getting across to you is that pupils in a compulsory act of collective worship ARE NOT THERE OUT OF DUTY AND RESPECT TO GOD. They are there because the state (and the Labour government to which you seem to have such objections) insists that they be there, regardless of their actual beliefs. This is not duty or respect. It is the exact opposite.

We seem to be in an Orwellian conversation of Newspeak, where the words you use mean the exact opposite of what everyone else understands by them.

And going back to the little bit of the Catechism that I know!!

Q; What is man's chief end?
A: TO glorify God and enjoy him forever.

Its not all about duty and respect. For me and those who I go to church with, it is often about enjoying the presence of God. Its brilliant (and yes I know some of you will think I am brainwashed and deluded, but at least I am having a good time!)

"If schools really must have 'collective worship' to pacify those who find it desirable, they could do it in the lunch hour for those who wanted it."

A genius idea. Hear hear!

Weegiemum, I think your posts are brilliant.

You argue eloquently exactly what I've always thought: that for non-believers to be coerced into taking part in religious ritual utterly demeans it.

I'm a pretty militant atheist & dh is Buddhist - he thinks very similarly to you.

AG; pretty much says it all then doesn't it...if even the labour party wont get rid of non secular schools.

Yes to Seekers OP.

State funded schools should be secular
There should be no religious requirement for admission to any state funded institution or service.

And damnation to David Blunkett.

dp, what I think it says is that the churches have an unholy sway over the political institutions of this country. And given your political position it is ironic that the current govt has and has had more active Christians than any other I can recall in this country.

Tony Blair - God botherer and Catholic convert
Gordon Brown - God bothering son of presbyterian minister

Most of the tories I can think of - no noticeable publicly asserted religious affiliation because they're (rightly) scared it will put off the voters.

As a RE teacher, I agree that RE has a very valid place in british schools, and it should remain. However, I think collective worship has no place in schools, and in the past I have completely refused to partake in it (run assemblies and the like). My job is to educate children about world religions, ethical and moral issues, not to indoctrinate them. Personally, I feel prayer (indoctrination) is a step too far. But maybe that is the atheist in me coming out???

No, schools should not necessarily be secular.

An open-minded school does not have to be a secular one. It's quite possible to have a closed-minded secular school and an open-minded faith school, and vice versa (after all, surely dogmatic secularism is no better than fundamentalist religion?)

Secularism is a perspective on life, as are faiths and spiritual beliefs. Why should children, particularly those who have religious beliefs, be told that secularism is the "default" or "neutral" way of looking at life?

If children shouldn't be placed in a religious environment not of their choosing, why should they be placed in a secular environment not of their choosing?

AG;....believe it or not..i'm actually a labour supporter, voted for them all my life...i'm a big supporter of union power, (not that we have much of that anymore)..

..i like Gordon Brown, think he's a much better PM than Tony Blair....am just totally disillusioned with the labour party atm...and have developed some very right-wing views over the last few years..

exactly tinfoil...

'and have developed some very right-wing views over the last few years..'

That much is crystal clear dp.

DP - you remind me of my mum & lots of other Catholic Mums - you don't give a toss about beliefs of others - only your own.

My Mum took years to accept that her faith was hers not mine or indeed any of my siblings. Faith is something you should enter into freely - unfortunately in the Catholic Church it is forced upon you, you conceal you true feelings until you are old enough to defend your right to say no more.

In the mean time you lie to your parents because you feel they're faith is more important than they're love of you.

I know this is off topic but your blind faith - ie taking little regard for other's point of view will land you in trouble with your own kids in the future - you really need to chill out a little - your attitude is quite suffocating.

Tinfoil, I can see your point, but it is still the case that at the moment families who would prefer not to have any religious practices enforced on their children do not have this option.

And while a secular school environment does not prohibit or limit the practice of faith in any other context, a religious school environment (even if only for ten minutes a day) does enforce religious practices on children for whom they have no meaning or for whom they are inappropriate.

Secularism, by the way, IS neutral. It is not atheism nor even agnosticism. All it does is says that religious proselytisation is not appropriate in all contexts (here, schools).

Tinfoil - a secular school is not an atheist school. A secular school wouldn't teach that religion is wrong or bad, or that gods don't exist.. A secular school would simply not be based in a religious context. It wouldn't be based on any religious premise. That's all - how could that be 'closed minded'? Many students, no doubt, would be religiously observant and go to church / mosque /gurdwara / synagogue for their religious worshipping.

A faith school can be as open minded as it likes, but by its very definition, it is rooted in it's own belief system. And is likely to exclude students not of that system in the admission process.

And, while we're about it: I believe that although the buildings of many faith schools are owned by the churches, in most the running costs are met by the state. Richer ones may have additional income in the form of an endowment from the church or benefactor, but this is usually additional, not the basis of the schools' core income.

noidea;

have said quite a few times that i am respectful of all religions....i don't ram religion down my dc's throats...have been quite laid back about it really...it was rammed down my throat...that's why.

Attending a faith school is having it rammed down your throat. Think I was lucky as I was cocky enough to go to the Head of RE in secondary school and explain that I was having none of the Religious rubbish they were peddling at my Convent school. I threatened to be a disruptive force in class - a bad influence if you like, ask very difficult questions and they gave in and allowed me to attend a more enlightended side of RE - ie one containing no reference to God - unless you felt it was relative.
I get really annoyed that my kids have to go through the same rubbish at a state school.

You don't ram religion down your DC's throats, yet you send them to a Catholic school. Oh, DP, you are a card...

I don't get why people should have collective worship as the default and the option to "withdraw your child if you want."

There should be a secular education system and the option to put your child into a "collective act of worship" if you want - an option which you can feel free to take up at your local church, synagogue, temple, mosque, hall of spiritual crystal healing or other site of woo-ery.

Opt in - not opt out.

snorbs..UQD....did you read tinfoils post...?

hey snorbs...i know catholic schools are the best....one of the perks don't cha know...

DP, yes I did and it misses the point.

"If children shouldn't be placed in a religious environment not of their choosing, why should they be placed in a secular environment not of their choosing?"

Because secularism is not the polar opposite of religious. Atheism is. We are not asking for atheist schools. Secular education leaves people with a free choice to carry on their religion elsewhere.

DP, Tinfoil's post & your assumptions labour under the same misapprehension: that it's appropriate to have an 'opt out', not an 'opt in'.

A secular school could quite comfortably accommodate religious activities for those who chose to join in. But it would not compel students to participate in rituals, which, for non-believers, are pointless (& therefore insulting those who DO believe) or contradictory to their own philosophy.

"hey snorbs...i know catholic schools are the best....one of the perks don't cha know..."

DP you really are now displaying a lovely Christian attitude - I'm sure Jesus would be dead proud of you...