Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

[seeker]

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

The difference, daftpunk, is that I am not imposing my belief system on you - but you are trying to impose yours on me!

GCSE coursework poem "you are a baby about to be aborted. How do you feel?"

Oh God LTOS you are absolutely joking? Please?

No, to Seeker's OP (hello seeker!)

Hello, OBM - here we are again! How are you getting om with that "Enlightenment Day" you were plannning?.

No - LTOS wasn't joking. I've seen it too. Fucking outrageous.

"science doesn't comfort or instruct like Christianity."

Well, I'm not so sure. It certainly instructs and comforts me.

As far as teh rest of your post is concerned, ilove, and as others have said: moral structure is entirely possible without God.

In fact, I've found it very easy to teach the dcs the fundamental moral principle:
Be kind to others, because they are like you and feel as you do.
They more easily understand the concrete idea of shared humanity than the abstract idea of god.

Well onebat it was my generation, so 15 years ago, it doesn;t seem that long! I would put good money on nothing having changed though. The same rules were in place then re. admittance to these types of schools. In fact I know that entry now is much harder fought. And when it comes to sex ed etc. I doubt anything has changed.

The school in question is one I nearly went to and all my close friends did go to, the title of the poem was confirmed just 2 days ago, my friend and I were discussing schools.

At the time I was horrified. And even now I could never send my DD there. But they do get super excellent results, dontchaknow.

UQD is right! (never thought I would type that!!!)

I am a Christian and verrrrrry left wing.

And I totally want secular schools. Leave religion to the parents.

I don't want children forced to participate in worship that they don't believe in, or even understand! That is demeaning to the child, and to the religion.

I don't want schools to be forced to put together some crappy assembly which does no justice to community ideals in the school or to the religion it is supposed to represent - that is demeaning to the school, the religion, and the children that it is involving.

Leave religion to the parents.

I would, however, encourage RE. In Scotland it is known as RME - Religious and Moral Education, and in good departments it includes morality, philosophy of religion etc.

And I would encourage schools to teach this well by inviting practicing members of various religions to come in and explain - and be questioned about - their religion.

I'm a Beaver leader. We're doing the "Faith" badge just now - which involves us looking at different faiths. So our boys will be going to church, and to mosque and to the Hindu temple, and to synagogue (we have a wide variety of faiths in the group). I think this is good. Then we will discuss them together in the Beaver meeting - and though I am a serious Christian, I will be able to facilitate a discussion which is balanced, cos not all of us leave our brains at the door!!

the religion they learn in schools is so mild but just a nice guide for life nothing sinister.

the post earlier about giving children who feel alone with no hope was spot on.

"science doesn't comfort or instruct like Christianity"

What onebat said. Of course science is instructive and comforting.

And you know, religion wise, I really like the songs, the nice stories (good samaritan etc), the community vibe, etc etc.

In fact I went to church recently and quite enjoyed it, people chucking the baby under the chin, asking after my parents etc. I belted out a couple of hymns.

I understand the point of church, and can do that. It's a good moral ethical community nice thing. It's the reason we;re all there in the first place I have a problem with. The god bit.

Can't we all have a good sing and make friends without having to worship deities? It would makde for better community cohesion, that's for sure.

Ah. Yes. Enlightenment day.

Well, seeker, ds has just moved up to Juniors and the head told me that a discussion about both agnosticism and atheism is on the agenda at assembly. So I am slightly less twitchy than I was when he was at Infants and the all the 'tolerance' work focused on Religion of the Bleedin' week.

Belief was the default position, quite definitely. I think they would say that's because they are negotiating a multicultural intake which contains a significant, and significantly devout, religious minority, and so are concerned with setting out the basics of religious tolerance.

I'm hoping in Junior's they'll be moving on to Baggini at the v least

I have at least found a framework withiin which to deal with what I now know will be the crap DS will come home with: DS has an assortment of imaginary friends (who variously get on buses, get stuck in a brick at Woking Station, need their nappies changed and are, of course, to be blamed for various naughtinesses in the house). Sooo, when he comes home with tales of Baby Jesus or whatever, I will be able to explain, look, there are lots of interesting stories out there about other people's imaginary friends, like Connor and Jessica and Alicia (names of DS IFs and I have no real idea why). Other people are entitled to have their imaginary friends and not be laughed at.

Though should they do what I have heard some state schools do and invite DC to bring in details of a prayer or ritual then it is going to be ever so tempting to let DS tell them one of his stories about C, J & A.

Oh, hang on, this has even more possibilities, there being few things more profitable than inventing a religion.

Jessicism.

Where do I sign?

OBM, bah, splitter! Heretic! Connor is the Senior Deity (or at least the most mentioned one at the moment). Jessica is stuck in a brick at Woking Station...

dh and I are sat here giggling like idiots at you pair

much as I laughed when my 5yo distinguished himself in his first week at school by standing up in assembly in the middle of the headmistress's prayer and announcing "My Mummy and Daddy don't believe in God"

Mummy's little git

State schools are secular here in Guernsey.

I don't know where you got that idea from phoebeophelia-I think that you are falling into the trap of thinking that a non church school is a secular school. I didn't know anything about it, so have looked, out of interest. I ignored schools with St. in the name and took a couple that were obviously not church schools and if you look on the web site they have policies for collective worship in line with England. Maybe your DCs never talk about it. I wouldn't realise from my DSs that they go to assembly and sing hymns etc as it isn't something they mention.
A school can't just opt out, without breaking the law-there are lots of procedures and they have to meet the criteria in the first place, like a majority of muslim DCs.

seeker;

you are imposing your belief system on me, you believe god is a myth and anyone who believes in him is some kind of weirdo, you want the school system to change because of those beliefs.
singing a few hymns is not going to do your children any harm...did you sing hymns at your wedding?

Non religious schools should teach children about religion, but not be required have an act of collective worship.

Faith schools, that's a tricky one for me because my children attend a catholic school. The govt love them, because they get good results and cost the tax payer less. Parents love them because they get good results and teach the children about the their family's culture. I love my children's faith school.

But... they are not really fair. Just because I can benefit from something, doesn't make it right. They probably should be private. However, they are not, so I shall continue to use our one.

Mind you it is an interesting thought about religion being banned in schools in the USA, and yet the nation being hyper religious, many believing the world is 6000 years old etc.

" seeker;

you are imposing your belief system on me, you believe god is a myth and anyone who believes in him is some kind of weirdo, you want the school system to change because of those beliefs.
singing a few hymns is not going to do your children any harm...did you sing hymns at your wedding? "

No I'm not. I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to pray with your children at home - or anywhere else during the 18 or so hours in the day when they are not at school! And I have never, ever, said that anyone who belives in God is a wierdo - I would never be so disrespectful of anyone's beliefs.

And why are you so hung up on hymns? I'm talking about asking children to bow their heads and pray to a Christian god against my wishes. How is that not imposing a belief system that I do not share on me?

Oh, and if I had ever had a wedding I might very well have had a hymn or two for purely traditional reasons. But I am happily unmarried. And I am in a faithful, respectful, monogamous relationship without any help at all from God!

i understand you seeker, i've told you that....but you are (in a roundabout way) imposing your beliefs on me...there are 1000's of parents who don't mind assemblys where a small prayer is said...they probably don't give it much thought tbh, too worried about the schools results....

i think your making a big deal out of this, but as i said...i can see where you're coming from....i would die if my children came home with a book titled "jack has two mummys"...not because i'm homophobic, but i just wouldn't want my primary school age children reading that.

not that they ever will come home with books like that...being at a catholic school..

Hmmm -glad that catholic schools are encouraging their children to be liberal and open-minded. Daftpunk - I've engaged with you before on the subject of your homophobia, and I'm not going there again. It would be wonderful if you would actually open your mind to other people's points of view, but I don't think that's going to happen. It's a shame that a thread which was really just canvassing opinion has been so hijacked (by me as much as anyone). However, I think that it has proved that the vast majority of people on here at least would much rather have schools with education about religion but not actual practice of religion. And that, I'm sorry to say, the cogent arguments are on the side of the secular schools side.

you don't want your children singing hymns and saying a prayer..

i don't want my children learning about homosexuality..

i'd call it quits..

AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!

DP you don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between making someone do something and refraining from doing something for a small proportion of time.

Making non-believers (or believers in something different) pray to any deity is an imposition. It is requiring the non-believers to pretend that they share the belief.

Requiring believers not to oblige everybody else to join in with their practices while in a non-religious setting is not an imposition on the believers. It is not requiring the believers to pretend not to believe.

Just because thousands of parents don't mind (and indeed just because there are thousands like you who think it is a good idea) does not make it any less of an imposition on those who do not believe or do not want their children to be taught that speaking untruth is acceptable.

(And before you jump up and down, by untruth I do not comment on the content of any religion, simply the untruth inherent in making statements of faith that are not true. If I, for instance, were to recite the Creed, it would be a lie, because I do not believe in One God etc.)

Seeker I'd let this one go if I were you.

DP's contribution to this thread illustrates perfectly the dangers of religion based education.

Just be glad your kids will be brought up free from such dogmatic, insidious indoctrination and move on