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Original poster

Yes/no poll on religion in state schools.

625 replies

seeker · 08/09/2009 14:32

Do you think state schools should be secular, but with RE lessons giving information about all the main world religions as part of the curriculum?

OP posts:
prettybird · 10/09/2009 15:45

I think the point that dp misses is that at the moment, state schools are legally obliged to engage in religious practices - as opposed to education (which no-one, unless I am very much mistaken, on here has objected to) .

Which is something that many parents object to, but unfortunately is something that politicians are too chicken to address and prefer to stick their heads in the sand and look away as many (the majority?) of schools choose to break the law and not impose religious beliefs inappropriately on the children that attend.

That is one of the reasons why I am a "disestablishmentarianist" - I beleive that the link between the church and the state that currently exists should be severed. Ironically in dp's case, it might also help to address the current "leglaised" discrimination against catholics, where the monarch is not allowed to be or marry a catholic.

dogonpoints · 10/09/2009 17:14

How often do primary kids come home with 'jack has two mummies' or Big Gay Dad?

piscesmoon · 10/09/2009 19:29

'much as I laughed when my 5yo distinguished himself in his first week at school by standing up in assembly in the middle of the headmistress's prayer and announcing "My Mummy and Daddy don't believe in God"

I thought that this was most refreshing and that WBSP's DS got it exactly right. He said that 'my mummy and daddy don't believe in God. He is only 5 yrs and is too young to have made an informed decision for himself. I don't think that it does any harm-in fact, for the atheist parent, it probably does a lot of good. It takes the mystery out of it, they have been exposed to it and so are less likely to go looking for it at an impressionable age. I doubt very much whether school collective worship produces avid Christians!
I don't really think it has a place in schools these days but I can't see much of a change while Cof E is the state religion. I think that RE education is essential but that is a different thing altogether.
The DC needs to have all views, they are not necessarily going to follow yours-and there is no reason that they should.

daftpunk · 10/09/2009 20:24

prettybird;

what points have i missed ?...i know exactly what the law states (1 person in my family is a teacher, plus 3 or 4 of my mates)....one school i know takes little notice of the law re; engaging in religious practice...they are basically running as a secular school.....i very much doubt they are the only one.

and seeker, this "poll" is about as reliable as the Iraqi election results....i wouldn't take it too seriously.

a poll on mumsnet about secular schools..? lol... of course you'll get the answers you want.

LizzyBirdsworth · 10/09/2009 21:18

Children should receive instruction pertaining to all religions.....so no I don't believe schools should be wholly secular.

Original poster
seeker · 10/09/2009 22:02

Practically all of them, daftpunk. But particularly the fact that despite many years of a Labour Government, the practice of homosexuality is not compulsory in primary schools. Unlike prayer.

OP posts:
AnnieLobeseder · 10/09/2009 22:41

As a Jew, it is a huge no-no for my DC to pray to Jesus. It breaks the 10 commandments, the most holy of Jewish law.

In this day and age of tolerance, religious and otherwise, how is it still allowed for my state funded, village school (which happens to be CofE) to make my DD violate her own religion for the sake of theirs?

Daftpunk - how can you argue that schools aren't imposing Christianity on those who don't want or, or are indeed deeply offended by it being forced upon them? Keep religion in the home and in your chosen place of worship, where it belongs.

And before anyone suggest I find anotehr school for my DD, a) why should I have to when it's a state school, and b) the next village along's school is also CofE.

dawntigga · 11/09/2009 07:51

daftpunk You are the queen of the non sequitur.

RefusesToKnockHerHeadAgainstABrickWallTiggaxx

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 09:15

annielobeseder;

because, England is a christian country..not a Jewish one.

if i went to live in Israel i would live by their rules.

and i can argue that some schools arn't imposing christianity on pupils...because i've seen it!.....it happens in secondary schools.

i wonder how many people on this thread wouldn't send their children to a top grammar school just because they said a christain prayer once a week in assembly ....?

not one i reckon..

AtheneNoctua · 11/09/2009 09:35

There should be a choice (as I believe there is now for the most part). I accept that some people in rural villages only have a COE school and that is not ideal. But, for the most part, we can all choose to use church based or non church based schools.

MrsBartlet · 11/09/2009 10:37

No we can't Athene. The point is that non-church schools promote christianity through praying and singing hymns.

Original poster
seeker · 11/09/2009 10:47
OP posts:
prettybird · 11/09/2009 10:49

The point, dp, is that any (state) school that is not imposing Christianity on its pupils IS BREAKING THE LAW. So are you agreeing that they should?

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 10:52

dawntigga....lol, just seen your post..

i'm suprised anyone who signs off their posts..."tiggaxx" knows what non sequitur means....

there usually is a method in my madness...i always get there in the end.....and in this case it was to expose hypocrisy.....

not a single person has answered my question

"would you refuse a place at a top grammar school because they said a christian prayer once a week"

i didn't expect anyone to reply..

Tortington · 11/09/2009 10:54

annie, you can ask for your child to not attend these things - i think you probably know that - just making sure.

but why should you have to remove your child from something that the whole school is practicing?

religeon - is for parents to teach. not teachers.

perhaps if teachers had more time instead of peddling religeon, citizanship and checking lunchboxes for a kit kat

some of our schools would get better academic results.

Tortington · 11/09/2009 10:58

is the place at the imaginary top grammar school free, and do i get free imaginary uniform and free hockey sticks and free imaginary latest performance tennis rackets and do i get a free imaginary social allowance so my kids could participate in imaginary social activites such as imaginary after schools clubs that cost money - like maths or sports.

then sure

but then the foundation of this question is in itself unstable

"would you send your child to a top grammar school if you the child had to sing 'agado do do' whilst eating petit pois - for no particular reason than the school likes imaginary aga do do do songs and petis pois in unison?"

Tortington · 11/09/2009 11:01

my point is that people would do becuase they value education first.

it would be a very strong person who would potentially ruin their childrens future if given this opportunity

this doesnt equate with hypocrisy at all - it means that its just a very shitty choice.

a choice that paretns should not have to make

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 11:03

seeker...yes i would, if i took my family to live in a country where hindusim was the main religion i would respect that...i wouldn't dream of questioning their laws..

prettybird....the school i am talking about has the 3R'S ethos...respect, responsibility, and relationships...the school works hard to ensure all the children have respect for others, to take responsibility for their actions and to have the abilty to form positive relationships....there is never any mention of God.

KerryMumbles · 11/09/2009 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

prettybird · 11/09/2009 11:08

There are no state grammar schools in Scotland, so not a question that is relevant for me.

However, the point is still that all state schools are currently required to impose Christianity - grammar or not.

prettybird · 11/09/2009 11:09

Are you being deliberately obtuse dp? You are still missing the point that such a school is breaking the law.

daftpunk · 11/09/2009 11:12

they are not breaking the law....promoting respect for others could be described as promoting christianity...they're just not rubbing it in.....you should be pleased about that.

Original poster
seeker · 11/09/2009 11:13

daftpunk - your committment to Christianity does not seem very strong - the 10 Cmmmandments strictly forbids Christians from praying to any God but the Christian one.

In answer to your question-(I think, I don't really understand it)-my dd IS at a top Grammar school. There would have been no point in my refusing a place there for her on the grounds that they have Christian prayers because (for what seems like the millionth time) they have Christian prayers BY LAW at all State schools. So there is no hypocricy there.

If you want to question my capacity for hypocricy, I suggest you ask how I square my absolute opposition to selective education with my dd's presence on the role of said top grammar school....but that's another thread!

OP posts:
daftpunk · 11/09/2009 11:29

seeker...there is hypocricy there, and if you can't see it i think i'm wasting my time here...find yourself a private school where they don't say prayers.....give up your childs place to a christian.

re; me going to live in a country where christianity was not the main religion....what could i do..? i'd have to send my children to school wouldn't i, maybe i would find a private school where my children didn't have to pray to hindu gods....but one things for sure...i wouldn't expect that country to change their laws for me.

my son had to dress up as a hindu child last year...(multicultural day)....did anyone complain.......no.

prettybird · 11/09/2009 11:32

(Knocking my had against a brick wall) I am not saying that good schools are not capable of promoting respect, responsibility etc outwith the framework of Christianity. In fact I totally agree with you (and for the record, the secondary school I went broke the law and did as you describe).

However, schools are (repeating for the nth time ) required by law to promote Christianity. "The head teacher is responsible for arranging the daily collective worship after consulting with the governing body. Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character."