Steiner education

[alloveragain]

Can anyone suggest an appropriate forum in which I could talk to someone about Steiner education? We have our concerns about it, but our children are still at a Steiner school.
Thanks

tuboflard, I wonder if you've read all the emails and watched all the videos on Steinerbullied's site? I would imagine that the horrifying events that happened would be "seen as a problem" to most caring, civilised human beings. Just my opinion of course.

SteinerBullied, I can certainly understand your reluctance to put yourselves out being new to a community AND your turning to the school administration for help.

As I mentioned I have read the correspondence that SteinerBullied provided a link to. I think it's true that people often deny bullying when their children are the responsible party as "SteinerBullied" pointed out. It's also possible that some people don't view particular behaviors as bullying because they are not caring, civilized people themselves.

Yes, I agree with you tuboflard, about people not regarding some behaviour as bullying. It's hard though, to see which bit of hitting on the head with an axe, or holding a head under water for example isn't bullying. I see bullying as cruel behaviour, often to someone vulnerable.
I wonder too, what the anthroposophical impulses were that are talked about in Steinerbullied's emails.
Isn't behaviour seen as to do with something that happened in a past life according to Steiner? Karmic? This is a question, but it is also something often discussed in connection to steiner waldorf.

I think we are all of us, each one of us, susceptible to physical, emotional, and/or mental pain, in other words vulnerable. And we are each capable of inflicting pain on others. In my experience what children seem particularly skilled in is exploiting/manipulating the various vulnerabilities of their peers, often in a very overt and aggressive manner.

Yes, true. And one has to consider what has driven the bully to bully. Often children/people who have been bullied themselves or are inadequate in some way, and probably need help.
In these instances though, what is disturbing is the apparent insouciant attitude of the adults; either they say it wasn't happening (in our case), which I think was dishonest, or they said it wasn't as the child said (in our case too), ie- the child is dishonest, but (as in our case) later back down when the story is corroborated by other (anthro) children, or they blatantly ignore it, (has been said often about steiner schools in particular.) I should think many parents give up at this stage.
We could also I suppose, embark on a quest of semantics involving the meaning of honesty etc.....
Still though, what interests me, is the idea of karma being perhaps involved somehow, either in the way the child "attracts" it (was said to my dh about another child being bullied,) or whether it is to do with working through "past life issues".
I've heard an anthropop discussing bad things that might have happened, to children, and saying it was because of a bad thing that they might have perpetrated in a past life. (Incidentally, the person saying this was quick to say it shouldn't be repeated in public...another "anthroposophical" secret then) This to me, is absolute and total anathema. It is using "spiritual truths" to abdicate any sort of responsibility, and imo is very dangerous.

I disagree-northernrefugee-one does not have to consider the source as it were.

TubOfLard Do you have children at a Steiner school? I get the feeling, perhaps because you're so obtuse, that you're another poster in some way representing Steiner Waldorf education.

I've lost your meaning there. If there is a 'source' or a philosophy that may be contributing to a certain kind of behaviour, or condoning it or encouraging teachers not to intervene in what's happening in a classroom or kindergarten, surely we should consider what that is?

The astonishing and unscientific nonsense taught to Steiner teachers would be laughable, if this were fiction. I agree, btw, that in fact it's dangerous. I think anyone who knows about anthroposophy and choses to turn a blind eye for the sake of a few 'natural' or 'special' bells and whistles is missing the whole point.

One does not have to consider the contributing factors with regard to a bully's reason for bullying or an adult's reasons for non-intervention.

glad you qualified that ;)

If it happens in a similar way in a number of the same type of school though, it might be a good idea.

Just wanted to clarify something, northernrefugee39: my child wasn't hit on the head with an axe. A boy threatened her while wielding an axe. The implication was of course that if she didn't do as he said, he would hit her with it.

What happened then was that she walked backwards, tripped, got up disorientated and hit her head on a tree.

Thanks Steinerbullied, it was sticks your dc was hit with I think? Stones thrown? I'd question the fact that a small child was in charge of an axe at this point. Although at our children's very good state nursery they used to saw wood, climb trees, hammer nails at three and four, where they were given autonomy but very closely and skillfully watched.
Good post restless tuboflard, one doesn't "have to", in a caring environment though, the background of all children is often considered.

northernrefugee39, So much happened, it's hard to remember all the details (that's why we wrote them down ), but the axe incident is of course still very fresh in our memory.

It's our experience that Steiner schools allow children to experiment with tools at a young age. The axe was used in the bush to cut down bamboo in order to build huts.

Having seen how younger children use tools, we weren't overly concerned... until we learned that the teacher was nowhere near their location at the time.

It just strikes us as incredibly irresponsible. In fact, Kay, a parent from the school and friend of ours (at the time) even suggested we call the police when this happened.

We didn't because we had a meeting scheduled with the manager, trustees and college of teacher two days later and thought it best to bring the matter up at that time.

We of course had no idea that Mark Thornton would decide to abruptly cancel the meeting and chuck us out instead.

We also learned that Steiner works a lot with contracts and we're wondering about the legality of the manager's actions, ie, cancelling a meeting that he had contracted to do with no notice whatsoever.

Our video "axed" explains the chronology of these events as far as we can determine (6 months on, we still don't know the true reasons for our expulsion...):

www.titirangisteinermessenger.com/TSM/2-Axed.html

Steinerbullied the video made an impression on me when I first saw it a few weeks ago, as did the film on the beach. The terror that your daughter must have experienced in what should have been a benign and secure place can only be imagined. Of course it wouldn't have mattered what the school setting was, Steiner or otherwise, it shouldn't have happened and it should have been investigated properly. Your friend was right, you had every reason to call the police. We don't know what would have happened if you had, though. And you can't be faulted for wanting to give the school a chance, for expecting them to act responsibly.

Bullying happens everywhere, in all schools and in the workplace, it can be overt or subtle (though no less devastating) There are bullying policies in place by law in the UK in state schools, public institutions but they don't always work in practice, where it counts. What you're describing here seems like a problem with the school itself, in reality they could write any policy and stick it on their website and when things got difficult, fail to follow it.

You mentioned a British Steiner school with an zero-tolerance bullying policy. On a different note and complete hearsay but I've a friend whose child was in a kindergarten at that school. He called in for some reason outside the usual time and was surprised to come across his very small son in the car park, a long way from the kindergarten, by a busy main road. He took him back, thinking the teachers would be franticly searching the school. All calm in the kindergarten. The teacher continued with her sweeping/knitting/stirring/kneading/gnome coddling or whatever and said, in a gentle, sing-song voice "Ah, here is the lost little lamb."

He's quite a laid-back man but this was a step to far even for him.

I know you're furious and rightly so but there's little we in the UK can do to change the law re accountability in independent schools in New Zealand. I wouldn't sign the petition because I'd rather my name wasn't out there. All I can do is offer my best wishes and say that from the evidence of your talent and courage, in spite of a harrowing experience, you're robust enough to bring your family through this and possibly get a lot of people thinking seriously about the situation where you are.

However I'm not alone in my worries about the lack of accountability in UK Steiner schools where Ofsted inspects but is toothless and apparently has no real idea what anthroposophy is, having never got round to reading any Rudolf Steiner. I'm concerned that our next (Tory) government will fund more Steiner schools. You might think that would be a good thing, that it would make them more accountable and honest. I doubt that would be the case because imo it's the pedagogy that's the problem and I'm sure about that - because I have read some Rudolf Steiner.

It would be good, if you want the support of parents in the UK, if you took their experiences seriously too. Calling yourself 'Steiner'bullied on here implies that you do, of course.

Well, this does indeed raise hackles, eh? I do find myself wondering whether the strength of feeling, justifiably expressed I do not dispute, is seen elsewhere relating to education systems? Is it possible that since Steiner education is quite a striking 'alternative', there will always be some who find it difficult to deal with? I do fully respect, the emotions raised by some of the horrible things that have happened. That said, I would be (I think!!, with some trepidation in this forum ) interested in discussion of the pedagogy that some have raised questions about, and the teaching of science... yes I am a Waldorf trained and practising teacher and I am also fully capable of teaching in the mainstream sector - however I choose the Steiner-Waldorf for its breadth of thought... eek, what is going to come out of the 'ether' on that?? Be gentle, let's see where it goes

Well, this does indeed raise hackles, eh? I do find myself wondering whether the strength of feeling, justifiably expressed I do not dispute, is seen elsewhere relating to education systems? Is it possible that since Steiner education is quite a striking 'alternative', there will always be some who find it difficult to deal with? I do fully respect, the emotions raised by some of the horrible things that have happened. That said, I would be (I think!!, with some trepidation in this forum ) interested in discussion of the pedagogy that some have raised questions about, and the teaching of science... yes I am a Waldorf trained and practising teacher and I am also fully capable of teaching in the mainstream sector - however I choose the Steiner-Waldorf for its breadth of thought... eek, what is going to come out of the 'ether' on that?? Be gentle, let's see where it goes

I think there's a better forum for you, where they'll wish you a Happy Christmas

Remember though, the Lake Wobegon effect so common to Steineristas has already been discussed...

Well that link wasn't gentle now was it? I'll be better going to talk to some real people. Byee. Merry Christmas.

Truly amazed that the message of 18 Dec was deleted describing the curriculum, main lesson and history. Extraordinary.

Happy New Year everyone!
Especially gnomes.
Look out for all deleted posts which have flown to other worlds and planets in fairy ether on cosmic rays as they evolve into higher posts.

Happy new year to you too, Northern!

Message withdrawn

Hope everyone had a great Chrimby.

Gnomes, I think if you go through the "contact poster" on the right of this message, mumsnet forward it. But you have to have the facility too, for which you pay a fiver for the privilege I think.
No, absolutely don't put your email here, (from my own experience, it is not a good idea, though I never did put mine here, I've had some nasty emails and other things)

northern is it possible that the deleted posts may transform into tiny forms that sing 'tweet' 'tweet' like the birds which occupy the upper air?

How may one find them? We ask, if not by clairvoyance or the electric internet? It is for posterity to answer.

btw is this a pantomime? It's behind you! No it isn't!!....

I had never heard of anthroposophy until a couple of weeks ago. I would like to share how I found out about it.

A couple with a child moved into the house behind my property about 5 years ago. The house is on a different street to mine so we are not really neighbours, although one of our boundaries exists between the two properties.

Without going into detail (and I have namechanged so a search will show nothing but I have been on m/net for many years)these "neighbours" have, during the past 5 years, imposed themselves on us in many different ways, acted totally disingenously, lied to us and several authorities, written dozens of irrational letters and consistently interfered with our lives.

When they first moved in , the mother and child came round to my front door (even though this requires a walk of approximately 20 minutes - like I said, we are not on the same street) and introduced herself to say they were going to have a party in their garden lasting well into the night. I invited her in and offered her a cup of tea. She stated that she didn't drink normal tea and said she doubted if I had herbal or fruit tea . I gave her a cup of fruit tea....my child started playing with her child...the mother grabbed the crayons they were colouring with and took away the black ones saying "You don't need these". Then my child put the tv on to watch Blue Peter...the mother got immediately agitated and told me to switch the tv off...(we were in the kitchen, the children were in the sitting room). I said "oh its only Blue Peter" and she stood up and ordered her child to go home with her immediately. I was .

Although both the mother and the father came round to my door lots of times after that (never for a good reason) they did not bring their child with them ever again.

One day, a couple of weeks ago, I typed the mother's name into the internet address bar (I'm surprise now that I hadn't done it before but I tend not to stalk people on the internet) and she came up immediately on a website for the Anthroposophy Society as "study leader".

Imagine the "fun" I have had reading about anthroposophy all over the net for the past 2 weeks, as well as finding these threads on mumsnet (which I had never noticed before due to lack of knowledge/interest).

Dh and I had decided a while ago that the "neighbours" must belong to some kind of cult due to their behaviour. Imagine my surprise/horror to find out how right we were.

I had heard fo Steiner schools :my sister's children spent some time in Steiner schools when they were young (they are now adults)- but as she lives a very long way from me we never spoke about it and she has never mentioned the word "anthroposophy" - I wonder if she even knew about it given that her children attended the schools before the internet existed. I may ask her sometime but we rarely see each other.

The point I am trying to make in this fairly unintelligible post is that everything I have read about anthroposophy fits with my "neighbours" attitude and behaviour: the mother uses the weird sing-song voice, they do not use rational arguments or responses in their dealings with authorities, they do not believe in normal everyday facts, they lie and are totally disingenous.

I am still in a state of and trying to get my head around it. I understand everything the Steiner "survivors" are saying despite not having had a child in steiner school myself - its the anthroposophy "effect" that is so impossible to deal with. The whole way of thinking makes dealing with its advocates a nightmare.

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