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Education

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Steiner education

441 replies

alloveragain · 19/08/2009 01:17

Can anyone suggest an appropriate forum in which I could talk to someone about Steiner education? We have our concerns about it, but our children are still at a Steiner school.
Thanks

OP posts:
alloveragain · 10/12/2009 11:43

thecaty, what do you mean by tinted glasses?
That was our childrens' experience of a Steiner school. Do you really think we would have changed them from a school they had been at for a number of years for no legitimate reason? And what about the views clinical educational psychologogist with over 30 years experience?

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 10/12/2009 15:07

"My own Ds is way above what his contemporaries are at mainstream school.
and not only academically, so is 70% of his class."

What is meant by the phrase "..and not only academically..." How can this be assessed?

thecaty · 11/12/2009 00:01

mathanxiety, it means the confidence for life they gain by doing amazing stuff.
Half of them are amazing runners, two of them came second in a regional sailing competition ( They were the youngest by two years)
They have each produced 6 or seven pieces of blacksmithing, hooks,toasting forks etc. not by watching but by smithing the pieces themselves.
They built between them an amazing rain shelter for parents, at the age of 9 y, with very little assistance.
This included bricklaying, which they were taught, wooden support structure, wattle and daud walls, and a roof.
the list can go on and on believe me!
I do believe this develops a heatlthy 'can do' attitude in the class.
And the Class is highly motivated.
I hope I have answered you, mathanxiety.

mathanxiety · 11/12/2009 15:36

'My own Ds is way above what his contemporaries are at mainstream school.
and not only academically, so is 70% of his class.'

I am impressed by the range of activities your DS has enjoyed -- but I am still puzzled by your assertion, which I have quoted. Maybe it is the mixture of the unquantified 'way above' and the 70% figure that has thrown me. Maybe it is the implied idea that where a child stands in areas that are outside of academic progress can be measured or found superior (or inferior) that has me scratching my head.

I too believe in exposing children to a wide range of opportunities to develop competence, and that 'can do' attitude. However, I also believe that children can develop a healthy 'can do' attitude from doing household chores, helping prepare family meals, doing homework thoroughly, working hard in a school where academic expectations are high, standards are clearly stated and achievement is measured against a wide group. I don't think a child needs to be doing 'amazing stuff' in order to develop a healthy sense of competence or confidence or a realistic idea of their abilities or where a bit more effort may be needed.

I don't believe that there are any activities that hold a child's interest or that might teach a child something that are inherently superior to others. A child who makes an honest and enthusiastic effort and produces a toilet roll Santa Claus for the family is, imo, doing exactly what a child does with blacksmithing or any other skills you mentioned. In both cases, the child has translated a mental image into a tangible object using a range of gross and fine motor skills, maybe even some social skills if co=operation with others has been necessary. Does it make a difference if there's a philosophy behind the skill or the choice of materials, or the process or the elements (fire, etc.) involved?

The good effects that result from children's activities are not related to the nature of the activities themselves or to the type of materials used, or to the philosophy behind the activities, or the type of materials chosen, imo, but to the pride the child takes in his or her work and the response of the adult to the effort the child has put forth. It's not the quality or the quantity of the product, or the philosophy behind it that matter, in other words, it's the relationship with the adult who encourages the child, and the feelings of the child about their task that matter.

I don't think you need a special, uncontaminated, organic, all natural fibres learning environment for a child to develop the 'can do' spirit, but you do need one if you're seeking out some sense of specialness for you or for your child.

restlessnative · 11/12/2009 16:08

mathanxiety what you say is so interesting. In fact it's very moving.

My daughter brought a puppet home from school yesterday. It was made from an egg-box, garishly painted, had eyes out on stalks & long, skinny legs & ate stones - there was one hidden in its egg-box mouth. The joke for every child to share with its parents was to 'find' the stone & pretend to be surprised, which was very funny and confirmed once again for me the good-natured, collaborative nature of her school. Just an ordinary state school for all sorts of kids: under-funded and noisy and loved.

mathanxiety · 11/12/2009 16:41

restlessnative that sounds like many of the very lovely and lovingly made decorations we will be putting on our Christmas tree some time soon . All were produced by the DCs over the years, using copious amounts of school glue, glitter, tinsel and paint house smells like pine and paint at this time of year -- and they all love to see their creations hanging up and cherished. DCs have all gone to Catholic schools with all sorts of kids, and have been blessed with teachers who had a sense of adventure in the arts field.

thecaty · 11/12/2009 17:55

That is all wonderfull stuff.
I just like to point out that in our school there is a heatlthy attidude to children in direct opposition to what some posters make you believe the situation would be in any Steiner school.
The children 'en gros' are happy, thriving, creating some amazing things and get the right amount of academic challanges.
I am not saying that this cannot happen in other schools. It is recognised these days in mainstream,where as in our schools it has happened for the last 90 years.

gnomesrus · 11/12/2009 20:01

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gnomesrus · 11/12/2009 20:04

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gnomesrus · 11/12/2009 20:09

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restlessnative · 12/12/2009 00:39

gnomesrus I have something for you to read. It could come from one of these threads but no, it's in the TES:

'Last week the very first state-funded Steiner school in England appeared in the national league table for 11-year-olds' test results - at the very bottom.

But the school is not ashamed, nor should it be. The parents of pupils at the Hereford Steiner Academy had wanted their children to have a Steiner education, and that means no uniforms, no hierachy among the teaching staff - and no tests. So the parents simply withdrew their children from the Sats.

Many myths are circulated on the internet about Steiner schools, which can make them sound like part of a sinister global cult. But while some of the philosophy behind them can seem hippy-ish, the myths are usually unfounded. I know, because I taught in a Steiner school in South Africa for three years.

There was no head and all the teachers were paid the same salary. Equality was a tangible thing: pupils, teachers, cleaners and parents all chatted at the staffroom kettle. Pupils at the school generally liked what they did. But they did not do whatever they liked, and lessons were compulsory. Each child has the same class teacher for seven years, so the teachers gain authority from knowing the pupils so well.

Being taught formally from the age of seven, rather than earlier, did not lose the pupils anything at all. I was delighted to see Steiner schools in England gain an exemption recently from the Early Years Foundation Stage requirement to teach literacy before the age of seven. Certainly at the school where I taught in South Africa, the pupils' handwriting was clear and fluent.

The academic curriculum also suited the development of the child in ways that I found sensible, not flaky. In history, for example, the pupils studied revolutions at the age of 14, when they themselves are in the grip of violent hormonal conflicts. They related to the topic at an emotional level, which helped motivation.

So why, then, did Plymouth University axe its undergraduate course in Steiner teaching earlier this term? It gave a "lack of interest" as its reason for dropping the only course of its kind in Britain.

I can't help wondering if it was the weirdness of anthroposophy, the Steiner form of spirituality, that may have put applicants off. As one mother wrote online: "I'd sell my granny to send my kids there if it wasn't for anthroposophy!"

So what is anthroposophy? First, it is never taught to pupils. Meaning "wisdom of man", it is Rudolf Steiner's description of human development, seen in spiritual terms such as the "astral and etheric bodies". Steiner was an Austrian philosopher and reformer, who founded his first school in 1919 for the children of workers in the Waldorf-Astoria cigarette factory in Stuttgart. An inspired thinker and reformer, he was still a man of his time: the era of European transcendentalism.

His philosophy ensures that children are treated as rounded individuals rather than measured as units of production. Meanwhile, since freedom is crucial to the Steiner philosophy, they - and the teachers - are free to think his spiritual views are bonkers.

I was once told that a baby should not be taken on an aeroplane because its spiritual and physical bodies have not yet combined. Well, I suppose you would cry too if you had left your soul on the runway. While such claims may be odd, the latent spirituality behind them gives these schools a valuable breadth of sympathy. It's what Steiner called "receiving a child with reverence" and "solving its riddle, from hour to hour". It taught me the value of lateral thinking and keeping calm in conflict resolution.

Take Peter's story. "Right now, his soul is black," said his teacher. Weird - but it was said with compassion, and freed up discussion on how to help him. In time, we found that angry Peter loved making puppets, which improved his behaviour. Would discussion of mark schemes have done the same?

Not all Steiner teachers are anthroposophists. How many teachers share the spiritual beliefs of their school's founder? I never have. And most beliefs look odd from a distance. I have worked in a Catholic school, whose kind, sensible teachers wore miniature instruments of torture (crucifixes) and pretended to drink blood (Mass). It didn't bother me because they were nice people.

Steiner schools are not a "cult", because a cult wants to be a religion when it grows up. Steiner's ideas simply serve the good of the child.

Nik Voigt, a filmmaker and photographer, attended a Steiner school and then a mainstream school as a pupil. He attributes his chosen career to his very first lesson at the Steiner school. "The teacher said, 'Everything is made up of lines and curves.' It may sound simple but it opened my eyes." In a state school, he felt he lost contact with his creativity. "In art lessons we were told, 'This is how you draw a jam jar.' What can you do with that?"

What Steiner schools cultivate is something that underpins creativity and imagination: humanity. Steiner wrote that "the new generation should not just be made to be what present society wants it to become". A valuable statement today, when sometimes it feels as if that is all we are doing.

Catherine Paver, Writer and part-time English teacher.'

No, I'm serious: this really is from a national newspaper. They actually printed it. Not as a joke. Not because they don't like this woman & want to encourage people to throw turnips at her. It's for real:

Steiner 'cult' is an ethos that fosters humanity

She teaches English?? Where? How? Why?

I'm going to ignore the baby on the aeroplane, at least for now: perhaps someone else would like to .. discuss the significance of that gem. But more seriously, I'm going to highlight one unlovely phrase:

'Take Peter's story. "Right now, his soul is black," said his teacher. Weird - but it was said with compassion,'

Remember, this is in South Africa. Such wonderful compassion.

thecaty · 12/12/2009 01:35

Gnomesrus please read again what I said then ask again. Please read carefully though!

mathanxiety · 12/12/2009 01:38

"That is all wonderfull stuff."
No, the stuff isn't 'wonderful'. Stuff is just stuff. It is the thought and effort that went into it that dignify it. Thecaty I see in your comments a focus on the material, the achievements, the amazing stuff, the amazing things they have created, and your focus puzzles me.

I guess what I would like to know is whether there is any such thing as a 'good enough' Steiner school or teacher, or if all the children and teachers in all of them are "above average", Lake Woebegone-style. The emphasis on perfection and the superlative troubles me, because not all children can achieve those kind of amazing results or make amazing stuff all the time. To expect such is to put a lot of pressure on a child, surely not a healthy situation.

I still don't know what exactly it is that distinguishes Steiner schools from mainstream schools, or if you can explain it. The 'right amount of academic challenges' is rather nebulous, so I don't know if this is what you have in mind. The arts and crafts elements are enjoyed by thousands of children in mainstream schools, as you have pointed out. The 'healthy attitude to children' that you mention may need explanation, because I believe that most teachers are living proof that this exists.

thecaty · 12/12/2009 02:09

mathanxiety
"It is the thought and effort that went into it that dignify it." I couldn't agree more!
I am saying most things here in response to the posters that draw a picture of Steiner schools as inferior in many respects!
I cannot understand how somebody, having made a an unpleasant experience with a school or teacher then concludes its the same in all Steiner schools.
Our schools are not superior and I never said that. Mistakes are made because human beings make mistakes not because the system is wrong.
You are right not all children can achieve to the same degree but each child can be part of an achievement and be empowered by it.

mathanxiety · 12/12/2009 18:21

So, they're neither superior nor inferior to mainstream schools. I am interested in knowing what exactly you see in Steiner schools that attracts you. Do you think a mainstream school would offer much the same to a child? What does Steiner have that a mainstream school does not? I am a bit puzzled by your last sentence too -- how can a child be empowered by the achievement of others, unless they're on a winning sports team? How is the great algebra homework of child X going to empower child Y if child Y can't figure out where to start on linear equations?

"Mistakes are made because human beings make mistakes not because the system is wrong." I am pretty sure I have come across this comment or a paraphrasing of it in my studies of Soviet political history -- will have to look it up, though. (Are you quoting someone here?)

Barking · 12/12/2009 19:12

Why was my message on the 7th of December (18.49) deleted?

I didn't mention the name of any website critical of the Steiner Waldorf movement.

Has it not occurred to anyone that if the website concerned was libelous in any way, the Steiner Waldorf movement would have sued them years ago?

They can't so they resort to intimidating Mumsnet in addition to countless other websites for parents seeking help and support.

Please can we see the threats so we're all clear on what can be said?

Mathsanxiety, great posts by the way.

restlessnative · 12/12/2009 19:39

Barking your message referred to a question from Mathanxiety:

'Anyone have any idea what the teacher was trying to tell me or why DD's lovely paintings fell short, or what they fell short of?'

It was a one sentence reply. There were no links. Instead you suggested she google the name of an intelligent woman whose child once went to a Steiner Waldorf school and who researched the pedagogical meaning, in the Steiner context, of painting. If Mathanxiety had googled the name, she would have found an article outlining the experience of this very bright and articulate woman in which she says 'How I wish I had studied Anthroposophy!' but I will admit not because she felt spiritually impoverished.

The fact that we are not allowed to post her name here says more than the name itself ever could. Barking wrote:

'Hi Mathanxiety, if you google *** painting' the first two articles will explain'

Barking · 12/12/2009 19:55

Thanks Restless

The behaviour of the Steiner Waldorf movement is deeply troubling, they appear to be abusing the legal process to ensure that its public-relations spin goes unquestioned and that any criticism of its philosophy and how it's applied to children is silenced and disappears as quickly as possible.

Why?

mathanxiety · 12/12/2009 20:03

'Twas too late. I googled and bookmarked before the post was removed. Many thanks for the reference, Barking, if I didn't already thank you. I had been wondering about the painting thing for a long time. I wondered at the time of the classes if DD hadn't been listening to directions during her class or if there was something philosophically wrong about the paintings -- both possible explanations of the teacher's response to them struck me as contrary to what the spirit of an art class should be. I don't believe there's anything right or wrong about art.

I was very curious about the personal story of the woman who posted her family's experiences which were referred to in the post that was deleted. She had moved from Ohio to Wisconsin to go to the particular school her child attended. This is a long way to move for a school. Still wondering what exactly it is about an educational philosophy or any school in particular that would prompt anyone to take that option instead of going locally.

Barking · 12/12/2009 20:15

Restless, replying to your earlier post, I've read the article and the author is somewhat misinformed regarding Hereford Steiner Academy opting out of the Sats.

The BBC website states:

"The worst published results were at one of the two dozen or so academies which cater for primary age children, the Steiner Academy in Hereford, where none of the pupils obtained the level expected for their age.

The academy - operating on Steiner Waldorf learning principles - teaches its own curriculum but, being state funded, was required to enter children for the Sats.

Parents had a different idea, according to the principal, Trevor Mepham.
"The parents were involved in a campaign against the children sitting the tests," he said.
"We registered the children and the parents in large numbers decided that they would not have their children sit the tests."

The Department for Children, Schools and Families said that in science, all pupils were working below the level of the test so were not required to sit it.

In English and maths, five were in the same position - and the other 19 were absent on the test dates.

The turn of events is an embarrassment for ministers who promote Academies as the answer to under-performance in England's schools.
The Conservatives, too, are keen to see more Academies and to have more parents' groups setting up schools and controlling their destinies.

BBC Hereford Steiner Academy

Not quite a clear case of parents taking a stand as the TES suggests, the majority of the pupils were working below the level of the test so were not required to sit it. Perhaps the scrutiny that would follow such a scandal of a state run Academy that has just been awarded 5 million pounds for a new building (for just 300 pupils) would be under serious doubt highlighting the Academy's massive academic shortcomings?

Time for ministers and journalists to do some serious research into Steiner.

The required reading list given to Steiner Waldorf trainee teachers at the University of Plymouth would be a good start.

mathanxiety · 12/12/2009 20:25

Anyone able to shine a light on why the parents were opposed to their children sitting the test, to the extent that nineteen of them were absent on the test day? Thecaty even if you weren't involved in this, as a Steiner parent, would your DS have taken the tests? What is your opinion of testing? Is this something you would agree or disagree with in the mainstream approach?

WrigglingAndJiggling · 12/12/2009 20:40

Fascinating thread. You have to move quickly around here though to get the posts before they are removed! Googling the painting information really gave insight.

restlessnative · 12/12/2009 23:09

Barking are they anarchists? These parents?

I know the SATS are unpopular though they happened without comment at my ds's school, where the staff did their best to minimize anxiety.

This is interesting reporting, I hadn't seen the BBC version. And yes, we all know that the Govt Report into Steiner Ed (the Woods) was written by 'two trees and an elf', isn't that right?

mathanxiety enjoying your questioning & analysis.

thecaty · 13/12/2009 12:57

Sats!...I have no idea Math why don't you ask them.
Do you need their address? I could look it up for you. Great questioning & analysis.
These are my words of encouragement for you.

thecaty · 13/12/2009 12:58

This is message nr 301