How do we feel that private school kids fill Russell Group Unis?.... Controversial alert.

[faraday]

Yet I am increasingly finding that most of the people I know who have chosen private have done so because their DC just couldn't cope either socially or keep up academically in the local state schools (or a mixture of both!)- so they're individually hand-held, spoon-fed and tutored in the private sector- then emerge ready to grab those limited places from perhaps more clever but marginally less 'graded up' state school kids?

Sadly some of us live near Comprehensives that couldn't fill a class with A*/A students as there aren't enough of them.

MF,

I think you are way out of touch. I don't identify with the notion of being spoon fed, and I don't know where you get your stats of private school students of being brighter to begin with.

Poor me - I obviously don't know what I am talking about despite living and breathing it.

I think that's the root of the problem isn;t it Metella. If I only had access to state schools that didn't have A*/A top sets, or if I had children who weren't bright enough for top sets, then I would be seriously tempted towards private. Not right though, is it?

I went to the local comp and have three degrees from three different RG univerisities (and a place at one of them to do medicine this autumn). My DH went to private school and scraped a third class degree. He tells me that his school spoon fed him to such an extent that he could not cope with studying with supervised prep!

Please be assured that state educated children can get excellent results and do get places at the best universities. We send many every year from our school.

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Scienceteacher:I think the trouble is you DO live and breathe it!

ALL I am saying is mediocre students do better in the private system. It is unfair.
You may think 'life isn't fair'...that is fine.

There will be very bright children also in the private system who deservedly do very well (your son included) BUT I am referring back to the OP.

The examination system at the moment is such that reasonably bright/mediocre students can, and do, get 3 As at A level, more so in the private system because they are taught in such a way to get the highest grades possible, for a variety of reasons. Pupils at not very good state schools do not get this advantage.

There is a problem with top universities finding who is the brightest of all because of the plethora of A grades. All the pupils at my DCs state grammar school get 'top' A grades so will relish the A*.

I feel sorry for children who can't afford to pay for a private school type education, it isn't their fault. They may be brighter than some at private schools and are losing out on a life changing decent university place.

I am lucky because mine go/went to a grammar school.

I wish all bright children were given the opportunity to have a good and decent education and that those who pay don't have an advantage.

What is wrong with that?

That's all I am saying. Am going to watch 'House' now. Goodnight.

Just as an example, Violet, my local Comp had the following numbers getting A*/A at GCSE:
French - 2
German - 5 (all A, no A*)
History - 7
Geography - 5

Maths and English were better due to the number of girls in the school.

The number of subjects where no-one got an A* was 8.

I live in a very nice area - there is no excuse for this school!

well I hsve to disagree with you there bloss but I suppose it depends on what you mean by thrive. The amount of eating disorders in the top girls private schools for example makes me think that despite the high level of successful oxbridge students these children are not thriving.

It's not too surprising that private school kids fill RG places. Yurtgirl started a thread in chat along the lines of "I've never heard of RG" and lots of people chimed in. Someone even wrote "I have no idea what they are and, to make matters worse, I don't give a fcuk".
If a parent is interested enough in their DCs education to pay up to 30k p.a. for schooling then I'll bet they have researched Uni and will target Oxbridge/RG/Sutton/whatever. If other parents merrily say '"don't know, don't care" then whose fault is that?

Of course, emotional well being is pretty important to most people. I don't see how it profits a person to gain top grades, go to a top University and get a 'top' job, if they are unable to hold down a long term relationship, be a happy and fulfilled person, be a good parent etc. Not that any one specific background precludes any of these things, not at all. But it certainly puts it in perspective. I feel that I have been successful in being happily married for ahem... a long time, having 3 great kids, having had a fabulous University experience and having an interesting and well paid career. Do I mind that I didn't go to a private school? Do I heck!!

Well it should be to do with intelligence not to do with how 'pushy' a parent is....

I would say 'interested' not 'pushy'

Ok'interested' then

Completely agree with VioletHill, but the OP WAS asking for opinions. I notice she/he has disappeared!

In the independent schools that are very selective it states in their inspection reports that the cohort is higher ability than those at grammar schools so the ones that are getting high % of pupils into Oxbridge are doing so because the kids are brighter.

Why is everyone so hung up about Oxbridge? They are not necessarily the best place dependant on the course you want to study, although employment prospects are probably the highest at these institutions.

Think about the person you know who seems happiest/most well balanced/fulfilled/harmonious family/fulfilling job etc etc....... chances are they didn't go to Oxbridge!! Or private school for that matter!

It's so easy to get hung up on these things. And perfectly possible to have a very fulfilling life without them!

The discussion is not about the brightest pupils, it is about the mediocre pupils who suddenly get 'brighter' once in the independent sector.

But why are we talking about parents targeting universities? If a child is intelligent enough to go to university, they should be intelligent enough to work out for themselves, with all the resources that are available to them, where they want to go.

I just asked DD how she chose - she started by finding out which were the top universities for her chosen subject, did some research on student satisfaction, looked at which ones normally made offers at a level around her predicted grades, ruled out Durham because she didn't want to live that far north, and applied for one slightly above her prediction, three around that level & one a bit below for insurance. As far as I know whether they were Russell Group, Sutton Group, 1994 or whatever was pretty irrelevant; what she was looking for was a university which would teach her chosen subject well, which she had a good chance of getting into and where she would enjoy studying & do well. DS is not available to ask atm (he's doing the washing up) but it was a similar process. DH & I gave advice when it was asked for, but in both cases it was their decision.

They both ended up at universities in the top 10, DS at a Russell Group from which he's just got a 2:1, DD's just finished her first year at a 1994 group, & also got a 2:1 in her first year exams, so it looks like they got it about right.

Agree Rustybear, but again I point out, the OP was asking why are those pupils who had to 'opt out' of state education for various reasons, suddenly all able to get into 'top' universities when they weren't particularly top of the pile in the first place?

Sorry to labour the point. Perhaps whoever it was who started the post might like to help me out.....

Am I right in thinking that people are using "Russell Group Universities" as shorthand for the top universities? Looking at the Times Top Universities list for 2009, 3 out of the top 10 and 6 out of the top 20 are not in the Russell Group. Both York and Durham are not Russell Group as suggested by a previous poster. I am being pedantic as a York graduate which was in the top 10 when I went there at the end of the eighties! Surely it should be about finding the right course which interests a student at a good university,rather than all this emphasis on the Russell group?

Private schools do have a higher ability profile than state schools and private schools also give higher 'value add' (which may be due to spoon feeding, smaller class sizes, better motivation or whatever) than state ones (all on average of course, individual schools will often buck this trend).

So you might expect more than 7% RG places to go to independent candidates even if a correction for school value add was applied.

But as it is also true that (on average) independently educated children are achieving higher GCSE results (& presumably AS/A2 results) than state educated children of the same ability (though interestingly this gap gets narrower at the top end of the ability range) then maybe there is a case for some positive discrimination towards state educated children. However, I think this really depends on why this value add difference exists. If it's purely because independently educated children are working harder then discrimination would be unfair, if it's because they're better taught it's arguable both ways, but if it's because their teachers are playing the system better & 'spoon feeding answers' then it could be justified. Unfortunately there's no way of telling why the value add differences exists.

A lot of people mention that 7% of school pupils are in the independent sector.

However, this figure is fairly irrelevent when talking about university entrance, where you need to be looking at the proportion of sixth formers doing A-levels. The proportion of sixth formers educated privately is around double that figure.

If you are talking about RG universities, where the entrance requirement is not far off AAA at A2, then you need to look at data for students getting those grades. Last year, of all the students gaining AAA, 38% were from independent schools, 28% from comprehensives, 16% from grammar schools, and presumably the rest from sixth form colleges.

I think that there are closer to 45% of independently educated students in top universities, and I think this reflects A-level achievements when you take out the softer subjects which have a higher representation in state schools.