private or state: how did you decide?

[marialuisa]

We're in the fortunate position of being able to pay for DD to go private, but we're really unsure whether we should.
Our local primary is dire but there is a strong possibility that DD would get into the neighbouring parish school (we're R.C.) At the moment this school has class sizes of 22, nice "feel", good academically etc. However a new housing estate on the way which will push up class numbers and reduce the chance of DD getting a place.

We have looked around and found that if we want DD to go private we should put her name down now for nursery class in January. Thing is I've not thought that any of the schools were particularly fantastic, indeed been quite horrified in some...

So, do we risk it and stick with the state system or put in the private nursery and perhaps move her if the state school is still ok when it's time for her to go there? An added pressure is that we live in a county with the 11+ and people tend to pay to make sure kids get into the grammars as the alternatives are not great!

So, sorry this is so long, but would like to know how other people decided....

SoupDragon - I think I have to disagree with your comment that people shunning the private sector to bolster the state one won't work. Someone on here as already said that they don't give a about their local state school. Just through sheer lack of time, parents will find it very hard to have a vested interest in their local state school if they opt out if it.

Article in today's Independent about how many private schools are failing. Agree marina, £££ does not equal good.

Jimjams - yes of course I remember your ds is SEN and I found your post heartbreakingly true. So many parents do seem to want inclusion nowadays and I am at a loss to really understand why ( OK superficially I can understand it, they want theier children to be treated ''normally'' but the fact is the children do have SPECIAL ( ie different)needs and these are just not met by the state sector)
You are right - if your son is well behaved then he will be ignored for much of the day - not because the teacher is bad or feckless - but one teacher cannot, by definiton, give individual attention/ personalised teaching for more than a few minutes each day to each child. Class teaching only works well if children's needs are broadly similar ( thus the problems with E2L speakers). The current situation stinks for people like your ds.

first of all WWW you are usually short on your postings and your postings on this thread were fantastically written and posed questions ( not answered) very thought provoking. bravo.

i am jealous, so jealous that i am dribbling spit down my cheek. when it comes to my children my political views go out the window ( and as most of you have guessed i AM waynetta) so, if i could i would pay for my children to go private. i think that whilst they were in private education i wouldnt give a toss about state education and what was happening to "other" people. whilst still saying to all i knew " oh yes the state sector is horrible it should get more resourrces and more teachers , they do a fabulous job" etc.. but probably do sod all about it.

however it must must be reiterated again. state education is not of the same standard country wide. that in itself is another issue.

i would not send my child to a state or private school which had a minority of non enlgish speakers who took up time from my childs education. its not racist its just the way it is. however there are an element of M/C peeps who wouldnt dream of mixing with our "type" thats not to say all, but it is some. but then we all have our hang ups dont we.

a lot of people seem to be justifying their decision o private education by saying they are working class or they worked hard in sainsburies, and therefore they are not a snob. ROLL on snobbery for my kids if i could afford it. however i do think spending 8,500 per term or more....per term!!! is obscene.

the other point was catholic or christian schools. yes they have a better standard of edumication usually. i have a theory on this.
my theory is: the parents at catholic schools tend ..tend, to get more involved, see teachers regularly, go to church, see teachers at church and have a loose catholic community.

on that subject and it may warrant a diferent thread - i dont think children( or the parents of) who dont believe in christ or whom are not catholic should take up places of those who are.

and on the class front
haing said what i said above, as i cant aford the edumication i am happy to wallow in my lefty views and make "happy" with my moral values that my kids go to a non private school.

the issue of solving the problems LIES WITH THE PARENTS TAKING ACTIVE RESPONSABILTY FOR THEIR CHILDRENS MORALS AND VALUES AND EDUCATION.

sad to say, but when your bare arsed poor and you think the worlds against you, when you see no way out, an all the people you socialise with, have no way out, when unemployment or faking sickness to get benefit is a way of life - sometimes you DONT even know how to begin getting a better education for your children, hope, future, wanting better, ambition, are not the forefront o your mind.

apathy is kiling this country and is killing the working and under class, i am ashamed that i know people who dont care how their child has acted at school and who would recite with a snigger a story where their son or daughter told his / her teacher to F off.
i would be mortified.

and WWW i was thinkin about it anyway, but you sealed it, have made enquiries with my sons secondry school about being a member of the PTA

its a long one i know am sorry.

Yes, thanks for your honesty MABS.

bayleaf- do you really think parents want inclusion? I spend my time surrounded by people trying desperately to get their child into a special school. I would like my son to attend a (non-existent) secialist language unit. The trouble with the special schools is that the mld ones have really become sld- so they're not suitable - and anyway his IQ is probably above average. The education campaign I'm going to be taking part in will campaign for units attached to mainstream schools. There is one here but it isn't properly supported by the LEA and the children get left to watch an awful lot of videos (there aren't enough staff to teach).

In a way I am fortunate that he can't speak (!) as it means he does attract a relatvely high level of funding for the mainstream sector. He won't be spending any time in a classroom without a LSA designated sepcifically for him (just got to hope she's autism aware- I'm going to try to get the words "appropriately trained in autistic spectrum disorders" on his statement)

I chose his school for several reasons. They are flexible. If a child isn't coping they reduce the hours they are doing. They will allow him to start part-time - still spending time at nursery. I also suspect that if it really doesn't work for him they will allow flexi-school. If a school can make inclusion work then I believe this one will, but I do have doubts (just because I'm not sure inclusion can work for him). I do hope it works for him as he is quite sociable and loves being around other children. If he wasn't sociable then I think I would just home ed him from the start. Finger crossed. The good news is that this term his class teacher and the SENCo will make some visits to nursery to see the set up there- he does cope very well in that mainstream environment (now he has appropriate help) so I do hope they will be able to do the same for him at school.

marialuisa - she hasn't started her girls school yet. We have only just put her name down. In Sheffield there is only one mixed private school. It was a boys school but now accepts girls - pnly a sprinkling at the moment though. So the choice wasn't there really. Luckily we know of good experiences of all gril schools - my mum's gramar school, friends, etc. Also, most of the recent education theory/research finds that girls often do much better in single sex classes than in mixed classes, especially in traditionally male subjects.

I like the fact that the girls seemd to be a bit younger than those I teach at my state school too. In the playground 12 and 13 year olds were still 'playing' rather than kissing and 'getting off with' boys. Because of mine and Dh's backgrounds/families I doubt she will become too niave though. If she decides to stay on and do A-levels they do them at the mixed sixth form of the boy's school so she will mix then. Also, some of the sporting and drama activities are done with the local boy's school too.

Also, the school we have chosen for DD isn't as expensive as the other one quoted here. Ours will cost us about £1500 a term for primary age (includes meals, after school club, ballet lessons, milk, etc.) and then rising to just under £2000 a term at secondary age. Still adds up I know but fortunately my Dh has a job that is paid weel enough to afford it, and I can still stay part-time - my condition, couldn't go back to teaching full time - not at this school anyway!!!

Bayleaf, sorry, I meant per year!

Thanks claireandrich, we've made an appointment to go around the girls' school. Realised we should at least go and see as it has a fantastic reputation and the nursery teacher has just won some teaching award.

Interesting point about the girls seeming "younger", i've noticed (and liked) that about the pupils in the private schools round here. Even out of uniform you can tell which ones are from which schools from behavior etc..

Jimjams - am aware that this is very 'off thread' but all the reports I've read in the media/programmes on radio 4 etc all seem to be full of people who want inclusion. Clearly they do not tell the whole picture - I agree that a unit attached to a mainstream school seems as close to perfect as you can get and your ds's potential school does sounds VERY good for a non specialist state school - hope it all works out for him.
Marialuisa - I've taught in a girsl school ( a state comprehensive ) and although I had pretty negative feelings about them before starting there ( it's a long story why I accepted the job) I ended up VERY pro. I'm not saying that all girls schools are great automatically - just that they can be - and that when I moved to a mixed school I was very aware how quiet the girls were in each class - they 'let' the boys make more noise/answer more questions/ gain more attention. Now ( years later) I don't consciously notice this at all but to start with it was striking.

Claireandrich - I take my hat off to you for surviving in that sort of school even part time - I know I couldn't do it, it's a whole different ball game to teaching in a 'nicer' school. Mine is a very working class catchment area but almost exclusively asian so not the ''in your face'' agressive behaviour you get in inner city white schools.
Alibubbles - I'm glad you're not THAT rich!!!

No wine at hand because I have to drive later. eek, I might regret this but I will wade in.....

Badmamma, you say
'If only all the middle class parents who cared about their children's education in an area communicated and (chose a state school over a private one).... Within a few years the school would improve. That is why our school is good. Lots of concerned parents joined, developed the PTA, became governors, worked out canny ways to get extra grants and classroom assistants, donated money and help and now it is a good school'

Now I am baffled by this and find it really sad that you seem to think

1, it takes middle class parents clubbing together make a school 'good'

(BTW I know you are not talking about the league tables as you go on to say ' it is only half way up the league table... has a third of children with free school meals and English as second language'

2, And especially your implication that it's only middle class parents are concerned and involved in their children's education.

Are you saying that most working class families just don't care about their children's education? don't have the desire, contacts, money or whatever you deem that all-important middle class muscle to support their schools?

Are you saying that just by being working class, parents can't transform a so so school into a good school?

I am middle class so I am not speaking from direct experience but I know of lots of working class families round here ( a working class area of London) who certainly do care about their children's education, do support their children's schools via the PTA, don't opt for the nearest state school but exercise whatever choice they have, have no qualms about moving their child to another state school if they feel their child is not progressing properly, do help in the school (many as dinner ladies, afterschool club or class room assistants and get extra cash into the bargain). I talk to parents all the time who have very informed opinions about the schools, know what's going on, and do get involved. Partly it's because they are born and bred in the area, have known the schools for years, have much more background knowledge than the middle class newies.

It is not unusual for parents to move a child from one school to another if they believe their child is being bullied and bad behaviour is left unpunished. I do not pretend to know hundreds of working class parents, but of those I do, many really do want the best education for their children and will take action to make this happen. Surely badmamma you don't think this trait is exclusive to the middle class? Please say you don't.

I would love to think that parental support can transform a school but fear that this is only part of the equation. I think you are lucky that it has made such a difference in your school. Why are you so sure it is only this all-powerful middle class PTA that has turned the school into a thriving one? perhaps it's not that simple has there been a change if head, new teachers, more state funding, etc?

IMO, parental support can only go so far. It can't buy more teachers, give them better wages so they stay and reduce the SATS and Ofsted presssures.

I also worry that your school, badmamma, has a socially tight middle class PTA that frightens away many parents. Have seen that happen. Then it's so easy to say that the outsiders (working class or middle class) are not concerned.

don't know how that smiley face appeared

Bayleaf, I have clearly been listening to the same Radio 4 programmes you. Literally full of parents clamouring for inclusion. It has often struck me how little you hear the opposing view.

Tigermoth- I think you've made a good point about the head. IME they make the world of difference to a school. I've chosen ds1's school on the basis of the head.

bayleaf- just quickly because as you say this is off topic- were they parents on R4 etc? I know the LEA's all think inclusion is a wonderful idea becuase they get to save lots of money. Especially when so many parents then totally give up on the system and go and Home ed instead. - lol No really it makes me cross- idiot ministers spouting on the benefits of inclusion when they understand nothing of the situation.

parents really? parents of which disbailities? If you want the oppossing view I could put you in touch with probably 30 opposing opinions by the end of today....

I'm stunned- really. I would be interested to know which disabilities they were talking about though as I am sure than inclusion can work well for some children.

I haven't had time to read the whole of this thread so apologies if Im repeating already expressed sentiments.
DH and I are going through the same dilemma at the moment and are currently moving house to be near a good private school. I absolutely resent that I cannot find a decent state school in our area and think its disgusting that I have to pay for my child to have what I consider to be a decent education. In France I belive the state education is superior to the private and that's how it should be here but it isn't.

My cousin lived with me aged 14 to 20 because she was a problem child and her parents couldn't deal with her. She went to a state school where there were 50 plus children to a class, complete lack of respect for the teachers and general lack of proper discipline / education. She scraped by with some GCSE's. I took her out of there after her GCSE's and put her in the school I had been to (private all girls) for her A levels and she became an A grade student. She always had the potential just lacked the focus and direction. I am afraid that I think that however many parents jump on the band wagon, with so many children, fewer teachers and restricted funds how are they ever going to reduce class sizes ? I resent paying for dd's education but it is a sacrifice that dh and I are happy to make to ensure she gets a good education.

I resent the comment on here (can't remember by who) about little toffs coming out of private schools. That is an incredibly ignorant comment. In fact you will find in the majority of private schools (except certain ones like Eton, Rugby etc) are populated by very much 'working class' people who work bloody hard, sacrifice nice cars, holidays, houses etc for their children's education and not by posh society types who own country manors. Most private schools are populated by middle class people.

And to answer another question I read, yes I am very concerned with state education even though I choose to go private. I will vote and do everything I can to improve the state system.

Agree totally Tigermoth that it's misplaced to suggest that it's only the middle classes who care sufficiently and are able to make a difference to education. Where I live, just because people are Bengali or white working class or whatever doedn't mean that they necessarily care any less about large class sizes and poor facilities.

Of course parental influence is vitally important but the real responsibility for improving state education surely lies with the government.

Jimjams, I suppose that most of the parents I have heard have had children with Downs Syndrome although I have also heard a few with ASD but possibly not severe. The only opposing view has been from parents of 'normal' children who don't want these children taking up the time / attention of the teacher. This is is course not necessarily representative of what parents of disabled children really think, just simply a small sample of Radio 4 programmes on the subject that I have happened to listen to.

Umm Ok here goes. My dd1 went to an inner city school (from aged 3)in London. We were both privately educated but want to avoid it for our children. It was a fantastic school. Well resourced, motivated teachers and very active PA. The ethnic mix was 96% Bengali 4% other of which the majority of 3yr olds were ESOL. There were a lot of extra staff for language support and a lot of the teaching was bilingual-especially story time. The Bengali culture is hugely learning oriented and the SATS were staggering given a)the poverty and b) the need to learn a whole new language. It was a school I would have loved to keep my daughter and subsequent children at but we moved out of town for work.
I would not presume to make a judgement call on a whole group of schools but look at each school individually. It isnt a question surely of state vs private but school vs school as all we want is happy well educated children then we need to work with the schools as partners on the governing board and PTS'a and in the classrooms and at home to ensure these things.

I agree withso much on this thread and disagree with so much too that I really dont know where to begin. I agree that moving house is approximate to paying private as house prices rise the nearer they get to adesirable school. I agree that snobs are not made by schools I agree that your job does not define your educational back ground. I disagree that second language english speakers are detrimental to a schools success I disagree that a child can be unaware of SATS when surrounded by what Jenni Murray calls pushy parents (her words not mine if anyone else heard the debate on Womens hour about this)

If you draw an analogy wiht the health service and your childs future depended on paying or not paying, you would probably do just about anything to pay i suspect. However I agree that paying automatically wihtout thinking about what you can do in other ways to make up for deficiencies in the system is a cop out.
I would go on bu you'll be relieved to hear I have to go now
phew. Now I wish I had a large gin sod the wine In fact I may not log on again for a month or so....

oh thanks bells- I just wondered who they were getting for these programs. I susect many children with moderale learning difficulties could do well in a sufficiently open minded mainstream school.

And as for the parents of "normal" children who don't want their children damaged by coming into contact with SEN kids -well I'd better scurry back into the yurt before I say too much! No seriously I think they miss the point that most of these.
policies fail the SEN kids far more than they do their classmates. I tend to think bad behaviour is far more dispruptive and far more of a problem than SEN children. Of course schools mishandling of SEN children (especially something like ADHD) can actually provoke bad behaviour.

I think I agree with everything bubbly has just written.

Yes Jimjams - the parents of the 'normal' children generally come across as rather prejudiced and also unwilling to take responsibility for teaching their children how to cope with disabled classmates.

I agree with Bubbles too, it is individual schools and the resources available to them that matter. Not whether they are state or private.

My ds will go to the local school.

Just one point to make:

I attended a state school. The majority of my friends were at private schools. And we were all equally educated and equally rebellious teenagers.

The Hash dealer at my school (state school) was from the nearby private school.

I have never been a fan of private education as I feel it breeds ideas of superiority over those children who attend state schools. I have seen this happen so many times. I don't believe the education is any better and I learned so much more about the realities of real life by attending a state school.
Just to clarify - I'm talking about Secondary School rather than Primary.

I will do what ever will get me the best education for my kids - the system is not fair, but I will play it if I have to to get the best for my children.
I have looked at private schools in the area, but have fortunately found a good state first school for ds1. I am prepared to pay for a good education if I have to, and may do this at a later stage.
The world isn't fair, friends of mine have struggled in the workplace thanks to their inadequate education, and I want to give MY kids the best chances for the future

Tigermoth: I am simply saying that if all the middle class parents who normally don t even consider state education joined a school and donated their energy - rather than just signing a cheque every term - it would improve. I am not saying that working class parents don t care about education. But by and large (and my mother was a cleaner in a pub if you want working class cred, since everyone else is bringing theirs out) they don't have the time, confidence, assertiveness and connections to challenge the system and make a difference.

Parental support for local schools isn t the only answer. But it is a start. It is better than hiding your head in the sand and scuttling off in fear to the private sector.

Our school is good because it has a genuine social and racial mix, a sense of community and the parents expectations (from all classes) are high. Both reception classes have a Down Syndrome child and special helper.

I think tmy sons know a little about life, that children have different abilities, backgrounds and fortune in life. They live in London so I want them to be streetwise not cocooned away in privatesville only meeting other priveleged kids (not to mention sitting in backs of cars for hours a day on unnecessarily long school runs which choke up our capital) I want them to be well rounded human beings who can talk to anyone and don t judge people on how much they have. Because in the end they are the people who get on in life and are happiest.

Whenever I talk to children from private schools, even ones I like very much, if you go even slightly below the surface their attitudes towards other races and poorer children are appalling.

And all you people who say private schools have a good social mix, get real!! £1,500 a term for one child, yeah, anyone can afford that can t they.

Always amazes me how often people who are against private education choose where they live primarily on the basis of access to good state schools. This is still using your money to get your child a better education. More importantly it defeats the whole point of the argument that everyone should support the state system as not everyone has the luxury or ability to choose where they live in this way and so it is not a level playing field.