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Education

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private or state: how did you decide?

475 replies

marialuisa · 28/04/2003 12:59

We're in the fortunate position of being able to pay for DD to go private, but we're really unsure whether we should.
Our local primary is dire but there is a strong possibility that DD would get into the neighbouring parish school (we're R.C.) At the moment this school has class sizes of 22, nice "feel", good academically etc. However a new housing estate on the way which will push up class numbers and reduce the chance of DD getting a place.

We have looked around and found that if we want DD to go private we should put her name down now for nursery class in January. Thing is I've not thought that any of the schools were particularly fantastic, indeed been quite horrified in some...

So, do we risk it and stick with the state system or put in the private nursery and perhaps move her if the state school is still ok when it's time for her to go there? An added pressure is that we live in a county with the 11+ and people tend to pay to make sure kids get into the grammars as the alternatives are not great!

So, sorry this is so long, but would like to know how other people decided....

OP posts:
robinw · 05/05/2003 06:52

message withdrawn

SoupDragon · 05/05/2003 08:57

It is different since a) Mumsnet is up front about using stuff for books and b) you get the chance to opt out of the books.

I simply feel that Badmamma should have said, out of politeness, that she was going to write a column inspired by a thread. I don't have a problem at all with journalists, I'd just prefer to know when they've got their journalist's hat on. In this case, nothing was quoted (eexcept maybe the EFL bit) so there's not really a big problem, it's just a matter of manners. IMHO

mum2toby · 05/05/2003 09:32

KS - don't rise to it.... she's trying to get you to bite and you are.

Badmamma - Are you actually a parent? Are you contributing to anything else on Mumsnet or have you got what you were looking for!
Sorry Badmamma, but I was about to stick up for you until I read some of your responses. I know this thread is about education, but can we try to keep it out of the playground pleeease!

badmamma · 05/05/2003 10:56

Ladies.... I feel like the fox who got into the hen coop. All this clucking is driving me crazy.

Shall we talk about getting personal? When I outed myself on Mumsnet as author of that piece (which i did out of honesty) I got a stream of attacks. To summarise: I am a sad bitter person, hypocrite, plagiarist, holier than thou preacher, champagne socialist, elitist in leftie clothing, snooper or, worst of all it seems, a journalist.

That is when I hit back. (Actually I m sorry, Batters you got the whip end of my tongue when I was feeling under attack and didn t deserve it.) Can you blame me?

If you were talking to me at a party you wouldn't necessarily know I was a journalist. We don t wear green eye shades or press cards in our fedoras. So a conversation with you in that circumstance might just as easily sparked off a piece. I would never betray secrets but there is no copyright on discussions especially on such a hoary old subject as state v private education.

As I said before, I plagiarised no one on here. I simply put down thoughts I had already together with info from three different news items relating to this subject which made it topical.

JJ thank you for your (sole) support because you of all understand. All I have been saying is consider the state system (and i m sure many of you have) and don t automatically assume that private is best. And remember that if state education is going to get better people like us are going to have to get involved in it. Blaming the government/system/funding is easy to do. But buying your way out so you can ignore it isn t going to improve anything in the long run.

Thank you Mumsnet and goodbye.

mum2toby · 05/05/2003 11:06

Badmamma - I'm sure during a conversation with a stranger at a party I would not divulge anywhere near as much info about myself as I do on Mumsnet!

Anyway, that's beside the point - I wasn't critiscing your views, the opposite infact coz I agree with you. But You are insulting and defensive! You never answered my question... are you a parent?? If you are then you'll find this site invaluable for other reasons than getting info for an article (no critiscism there... it doesn't bother me what you used).

You seem to have bunched us all together as some cliqeuy (sp?) gaggle of clucking mothers!! Please stop being like this, there is no need.

Oakmaiden · 05/05/2003 11:36

Well M2T, if you search for threads with Badmamma as the author, then there is one which tells us about how her mil descended upon her moments after she had given birth - which indicates that she does have a legitimate reason for being here - which I assume is what you are asking.

In fairness you will also see another thread where she is very upfront about the fact that she is a journalist - so she hasn't been particularly cloak and dagger and NEVER mentioned it before - just didn't mention it on this thread.

mum2toby · 05/05/2003 11:39

Thanks Oakmaiden - the journalist part didn't bother me at all as I said. Just the insults!

tigermoth · 05/05/2003 12:18

just a quick question if all you are saying is consider the state system, badmamma (and that's what jj says you are saying as well), are you as cross with those who have considered it and turned away from it as those who have never considered it at all?

IMHO I think it's totally reasonable to ask parents to consider state education, but feel your views go much, much further than this.

Jimjams · 05/05/2003 12:24

Yes yes yes tigermoth although I think BM may have gone for good. It would be entirely reasonable to say consider the state system- but that wasn't what BM was saying.

I certainly considered the state health system for my son- I am still considering it, and when they decide he is worth treating I will happily use them.

judetheobscure · 05/05/2003 12:42

I would rather use the state system (after all you don't have to pay for it) but I am not prepared to let my children suffer unduly as a result.

Badmamma - if you're still around - I have no objection to your views, your journalist's hat etc. , just the insults that went flying - but accept your apology re it being a bad day.

beetroot · 05/05/2003 12:44

This reply has been deleted

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Rhubarb · 05/05/2003 20:51

JJ - my point is that for some people, sending their kids to a crap school, with stabbing incidents, drug-dealing, etc is not a choice. They cannot afford to move house and they cannot afford to pay for their kids to go private. So how do you think a parent feels knowing that the school their child will be attending, is a failing school with a history of violence? When will you people wake up and see that for some IT IS NOT A CHOICE!

And leave Badmamma alone will you? In the words of Vic Reeves "You wouldn't let it lie would you???" I think she's got the message and more than paid for writing her views in a newspaper, so just let her be. Anyone would think we were in a playground here!

willow2 · 05/05/2003 21:27

What started off as an interesting discussion has, IMO, got rather nasty. I'm sure this wasn't marialuisa's aim - so shall we call it a day? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and there is nothing wrong with a "heated debate", but it always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when someone ends up feeling unable to post. At the risk of sounding like a swot, maybe it's time to recall the Mumsnet philosophy, namely...

"that issues to do with raising children can be very sensitive and that everyone has the right to make their own choices when it comes to bringing up their kids. As far as possible we would ask you to respect other people's right to choose, even if you disagree with them. After all, we all know how difficult this parenting business can be, and if there's one thing all of us could do with, it's some moral support."

hmb · 05/05/2003 22:00

Willow2, I agree that it is sad when things turn nasty. And it doesn't happen that often on Mumsnet. However Badmamma did bring it on herself, more than a little I think, when she posted

'Frankly I think that is all nonsense. I contend it is snobbery which keeps you all out of state schools. Pure and simple. You don t want your kids to mix with plebby kids and you don t want to mix with Waynetta mums. '

And that is a direct quote. And hardly in the best spirit of Mumsnet

Rhiannon · 05/05/2003 22:08

Aah there's plenty of Waynetta's at private school too you know. There are some things that money doesn't buy.

mum2toby · 05/05/2003 22:15

LOL Rhiannon! Brilliant and so true.

willow2 · 05/05/2003 22:28

hmb - re the pleb/Waynetta comment - yup, that was a dumb-arsed thing to say. Wasn't actually fighting anyone's corner, just trying to bring a little peace in to this sad and troubled world - aah.

which reminds me, for those of you who haven't checked out this link, if you fancy lightening up this could be just the
ticket
please god let none of you be relatives of a certain missing dictator

JJ · 05/05/2003 22:39

Rhurbarb, I know that and it sucks. But you can't seriously expect me to choose to send my son to at school where a kid was shot and killed over a basketball game a recess over a place where that's a lot less likely to happen. You obviously don't want to send your kids there (if it's your school you're talking about). Would you still do it if you could afford something different?

I guess if all schools were state, I would move somewhere with decent schools. We didn't (in Chicago), simply because we love the city and think it's horrible people move out and then have to drive back in for work, etc. (Don't get me started on suburban sprawl.. ) I think we, along with many of our neighbours, did a good job in the neighbourhood dealing with gangs isn't really fun, y'know, although we didn't have a rough time of it (just the usual: graffiti, a break in, more graffiti, kids getting shot it was mostly kids, but usually gang related).

Now the things I did for the CPS system include: voting for people concerned about schools, running a program in a school across the parking lots in the Robert Taylor homes (the projects -- most people won't even drive into the neighbourhood), helping with another project involving getting a set of local, v poor schools connected to the internet with T1 connections and supporting that with the computers themselves and additional training and plus, just living where I did, being out on the streets, calling the police for what seemed like every goddamned night for a while when things got out of hand, thereby helping the gang problem which also affected the local school. So now that you're all impressed with the things I did (not impressed, I'm sure); I have to admit that you're right, the one thing I didn't do was put my son in danger or deny him an education (and believe me, he would have been denied one). He's my son and it boils down to the fact that I love him a lot more than I love yours. Not that I don't wish this were an ideal world and all kids got the same education. And, of course, it's not that I want anything less that the best (and certainly no harm, I hope you didn't infer that from my message) for your child. Just, for me, my sons come first.

I think it's invalid to say that the only way to improve schools is for us middle class (whatever that means-- still haven't gotten the whole class thing yet) parents to send our kids to terrible schools. I think what it takes is people caring about the schools and caring enough to do something (anything!) about them, even if it's just buying candy from the kid coming around looking for money for band uniforms or donating a bunch of books to the local school's library. I think that if everyone did that, the schools would be a little better off, but more importantly, people would feel connected to the local schools. Even if their kids didn't go there.

Anyway, you're right. It's not fair. I didn't say it was. I said that you have an unreasonable expectation for people.

willow2 · 05/05/2003 22:51

Just a thought - frankly, the good fairy lark got a bit boring - but if every privately educated child were to descend on the state system do you think we would be facing the prospect of a three day state school week, rather than a four?

robinw · 06/05/2003 06:28

message withdrawn

ks · 06/05/2003 07:27

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tigermoth · 06/05/2003 08:05

Yes, that's a question. What happens when you try state educaton but it fails your children? Is it then reasonable to keep on allowing the system to fail your child? Who would go this route, really?

Just another point. I agree that parents involvement in state schools would help those schools to thrive, I but just don't agree this is the sole major reason that would transform state schooling.

And what about the time factor? If your children are old enough for school, chances are you are at work. If you work monday to friday and do an average job of supporting your own child's school, just how much time have you left to support another school too? you are not around during the day, you have your children to look after at weekends. I am not saying you can't do anything - jj's list shows that - but isn't it more feasible to give money, donate books, than give your time? How possible is it to be active on two school PTA's for instance, if you are also working full time?

I think it's a great idea to give time to a school other than the one your child goes to, but how easy is this in reality?

willow2 · 06/05/2003 10:24

ks - you had no choice but to do as you did. And no, nobody has the right to try to make you feel "bad" about making that decision. I would do exactly the same if faced with similar circumstances. xx

seahorse · 06/05/2003 10:27

ks

That is terrible - I haven't really joined in on this posting as I just don't have strong feelings for state or private - I guess my utopia would be a lovely state infant/primary within walking distance with good strong headmaster and supportive parents.

I think (but don't know) that everone would want this. However the more mums I meet with children of school age, I realise that some really just wouldn't ever sent their children to state schools under any circumstances.

The bullying at the private school I attended from 14 - not that I was bullied badly (having changed from the local comp) was just as bad and the drug taking was worse (more money for drugs)..

The children dressed better and had better speech but there were still the horrible kids and the nice kids. For me leaving the comp where I was happy was a very bad decision. However in your situation ks I would have moved my son to another but the question isn't state or private it is just 'another' with more support and a better bullying policy.

Their view is that they want their children to not only have good education but make good life long friends and therefore good contacts for the future (eg networking!!)

Jimjams · 06/05/2003 10:29

Interesting ks. We've just been to visit ds1's potential school- and the thing I love about it is that they really welcome parents into the school. Once you've been list 99 checked they're happy for you to come in and hekp out. And obviously having a child like ds1- who can't talk- it is essential that I can keep a little eye on what is going on if I feel I need to- as he can't tell me.

Really very refreshed by the visit. And that must represent a choice within the state sector- as it's not even within our lea.

Good point from robinw about home education as well. DS1 is going to be hard work for a school but it is good to know that if it does all go pear shaped there is the home education alternative.

I don't think there was anything wrong with BM's basic messgae - of consider your state school- it's just the judgemental tone she took with everyone-when all anyone is trying to do is look after their child. It must be pretty galling if you've tried the state sector and it has failed your child horribly to then be told you're going private becuase you're a snob who likes a poncy uniform.

And we're all fairly friendly on mumsnet aren't we. If BM contributed to other threads she wouldn't automatically be hounded out. It's only when someone says something offensive they get jumped on. I've had spats with people on some threads and then totally agreed with them on others.

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