private or state: how did you decide?

[marialuisa]

We're in the fortunate position of being able to pay for DD to go private, but we're really unsure whether we should.
Our local primary is dire but there is a strong possibility that DD would get into the neighbouring parish school (we're R.C.) At the moment this school has class sizes of 22, nice "feel", good academically etc. However a new housing estate on the way which will push up class numbers and reduce the chance of DD getting a place.

We have looked around and found that if we want DD to go private we should put her name down now for nursery class in January. Thing is I've not thought that any of the schools were particularly fantastic, indeed been quite horrified in some...

So, do we risk it and stick with the state system or put in the private nursery and perhaps move her if the state school is still ok when it's time for her to go there? An added pressure is that we live in a county with the 11+ and people tend to pay to make sure kids get into the grammars as the alternatives are not great!

So, sorry this is so long, but would like to know how other people decided....

Yeah assisted places were a great idea, paying for one or two already successful children to have a highly priveleged education. Much better use of taxes than, say, classroom assistants for state schools.

Agree totally with ks, hate SATS, they are destroying the state school system far more than people opting out of the system. NUT at its recent conference has voted against SATS and using TA's in the classroom instead of teachers.
And for the record, dd is at a very small private school (9 in her Yr 1 class) which does not do SATS.

I didn't have to decide - we can't afford private education. However, even if we did I'm not sure we would.

I think it's incredibly unfair that in some areas of the UK a child gets a good education if his parents can afford to pay for it and he doesn't if they can't. Many parents (most, probably) don't have a choice and have to send their children to the nearest state school, whether it's good or not. I am angry at how awful some of them are although we are one of the lucky ones: ours is good.

I do have some sympathy with badmamma's view that if the majority of concerned parents desert the state sector then who is left to get involved, care about and work to change state schools? I'm interested to know: if your child is privately educated is state education something that really concerns you? I really am interested, I'm not being confrontational. And if it does, does it concern you enough to vote based on education? To become a governor at the local state school (even if your child doesn't go there)? Maybe you'll all tell me that putting your children through private education doesn't mean you care any less about state education? When you read about the awful local schools do you feel guilty that your child isn't affected (and others in your street are) or relieved that it doesn't concern you? Or neither? In theory I don't approve of private education because I don't think we should need it - all schools should be free and good enough for all of our children. I do know this isn't a popular view though and the reality is that some schools are truly awful. What this means is that a lot of you here decide that you can't change it fast enough for your children but you can pay to make sure they don't suffer. I can see why you might take that view.

I do have an aquantance who, after years of sending her ds to the (awful) local state school, said "I've had enough of sacrificing him on the altar of my principles" and reluctantly went private. She'd always been able to afford to but had hoped she'd be able to avoid it. I doubt very much that she's got any time or energy to spend on the local school that her ds left though.

Mmm. Principles hey? I think we all have to examine ours when we have children and see if they stand up to practical application. Mine do atm but I completely appreciate that they may be severely tested should I move back to a large city, as is likely.

Tinker, um, I'm probably going to wish I'd joined you! No offence intended to anyone.

I disagree that I am a snob (and I certainly object to being called racist badmamma) racist for not sending my child to a bad school. As a teacher I have taught in a very good state school where I would have sent DD. I now teach in a bad school. Why would I want to send my children there when I don't have to? I am doing what I feel is best for my child - that is my right. Believe me it takes a lot more than vecoming a governer to change a school - government money would help, full teaching levels, better bnehaved children, parental support, etc. In my school parental support is a huge problem and behaviour even bigger - as OFSTED said last month, behaviour is a serious weakness. I can't justify sending my child to a school where she will be held back by other pupil's behaviour. If I could have a definite chance of getting her into a good scholool in the state sector then I would but the housing in the right areas are so expensive.

This is an individual parents choice let's remember that. There is no need for insulting other people - we should listen to other people's opinions, give our our and that's it - surely. We are adults aren't we? Sorry about the rant - I just hate being insulted - I was very offended by being called racist when I am most certainly not.

ok fair do's on assisted places - although I think they had some advantages- in that it did provide access for children of poor families- and whilst not idea surely giving some children a better education is better than none. Now I'm going to really stir the pot.......lets bring back grammer schools.......

ducking off to refill my red wine glass......

My son is doing his year two SATS at a state school and isn t even aware he is doing them, they deliberately don t tell pupils (just think they are doing worksheets) so he s under no pressure. I think it is good that his teachers are aware of the standard children should be reaching in reading, writing and maths. I think it is good that schools are expected to keep up nationally applied standards. The NUT just hates the idea of teachers - even appalling ones - being judged at all.

Seems strange that so many of you are against state schools for being so competitive and pushy about SATS, when you are opting for private education which is far more rigorously competitive.

Frankly I think that is all nonsense. I contend it is snobbery which keeps you all out of state schools. Pure and simple. You don t want your kids to mix with plebby kids and you don t want to mix with Waynetta mums.

BTW I certainly do care about state education - I teach in. However if things continue as they are I may not much longer. I hate going into a classroom to be insulted, face aggressive unruly children and unsupportive parents. Things DO need to change ASAP before all the decent teachers have gone. But the Governments must do that.

Jimjams that's very naughty - you can't just throw that in and retreat - I'm resisiting the temptation ...........

Badmamma - I think your statement is kind of offending. I gather you are lucky enough to have your child in a good school - by the sounds of it anyway. Why can't you just accept another opinion rather than insulting people. I accept that you made your decision the way you did.

I also went to a bad school - was brought up and lived in a very poor council estate - and got so little support. I became a teacher because I wanted to help matters - look where that has got me. Being physically assulted whilst 7 motnsh pregant by a thug of a boy. School punished him with 2 days exclusion - wow, he got some time of school which he enjoyed. No apology, no parent's in - and I still have to teach him now. I can not put my child through this as well - not when I don't have to.

claireandrich and others, especially the teachers, another genuine question here before I go to eat! What do you think we should all be doing about how bad some state schools are? What in your view would make the most difference? Money? Support? What? What would you like to see change?
(ks, we've probably had enough of the country, may be moving again!)

Claireandrich - well written . I too was offended by the racist comments, which is why i felt i had to reply to the earlier posts. I do what i feel is best for MY children (not SATS) and I have 2 very different ones - my 8 yr old dd is bright , sporty and academic - my younger ds is gorgeous, very endearing and has mild cerebral palsy.

The private school nursery/school that mine are at has been totally supportive - even to the extent of doing ds' physiotherapy when asked. I am sure other private schools are different but i can only comment on my experiences

www - not very proud to admit, but totally honestly, no I don't 'really' care about the local state school as mine aren't there.

WWW - parents with influence sending their kids there!

Hm - I'm a bit of a fence-sitter on jumping through hoops (interesting image?).

I think SATs were set up with the best of intentions, ie identifying schools which were not doing the best by their kids, but are being abused by - probably - the very schools they were intended to pick up. (There is no doubt that some SATs co-ordinators "drop hints" to the Y2 and Y6 teachers about what is coming up, if not actually feeding them specific questions.)

Have never experienced a bad school - one or two dodgy teachers, but in what is basically a good school. My DD1 started Reception in January aged 4.9, unable to read but with some knowledge of letters - by the time she did her reading test in Spring of Y2 (this was 14 years ago, way before SATs), aged just 7, her tested reading age was 10.5. I didn't know then, and still don't, how much credit the school was entitled to for this.

All my kids have gone off the top of the scale for reading by Y3/Y4. Unfortunately this has not necessarily been reflected in their subsequent performance. Testing is a very limited means of assessing a school. If you really can spare the money for a private school, and you like the feel of the school, then there's a lot to be said for it. (Mind you where we live there is a grammar school but there is also an incredibly good RC comprehensive school - is there not one of those where you are, marialuisa?)

www I agree with you. State schools should be good enough for everyone to want to send their child there. In the same way my son should have his educational needs met wherever he goes. Unfortunately he won't. I pay for that shortfall and I feel dreadful for the people who can't afford to pay for that. That is why I get involved in campaigning for better education for autistic children. For me it is less stressful to pay for ds1's necessary interventions than to fight the system but I know other people aren't in that position.

When we moved ouse, we chose the area we moved to in order to get a decent education for our sons. Had DS1 not got into the school of ou choice and been offered a place at a "bad" school, we would have paid for him to go private. No way would I sacrifice either of my sons' future for principles.

Badmamma "it is snobbery which keeps you all out of state schools. Pure and simple. You don t want your kids to mix with plebby kids and you don t want to mix with Waynetta mums." What a load of c**p!!

Now, where's my wine...

When we moved ouse, we chose the area we moved to in order to get a decent education for our sons. Had DS1 not got into the school of ou choice and been offered a place at a "bad" school, we would have paid for him to go private. No way would I sacrifice either of my sons' future for principles.

Badmamma "it is snobbery which keeps you all out of state schools. Pure and simple. You don t want your kids to mix with plebby kids and you don t want to mix with Waynetta mums." What a load of c**p!!

Now, where's my wine...

Well argued WWW - without getting too emotive; I too have serious msigivings about the private education sector - I am sure that, in many cases, the actual teaching is very good but what I really dislike, & I have seen this happen to many of my friends who moved from state primary to private secondary is the change of values and attitudes that (some, not all) privately educated children seem to have - a lot of children do turn into 'hooray henrys' & whatever the female equivalent is. That is what I would hate to happen to my child. Their school holidays seem to involve exotic vacations or swanning around attending hunts & balls rather than working in the local shop etc.

I acknowledge that I am very lucky in that I live in a part of the country with very good state schools, equally I am prepared to play a full part in supporting the schools but I would loathe my child to turn into a little snob.

I am still not sure what will help state schools now as it has been left for so long.

As a teacher I don't really want more money. This is our second income and I only work part time. However, if it is the main wage (bearing ind the length of time for training, paying for uni,etc.) it is low paid when compared to other professions. How people in London manage I have no diea.

I would like more time - planning and marking time, time to make appointments to speak to pupils out of lesson time to discuss coursework progress, time to do decent reports that have meaning. Teachers need to be freed from admin duties too more to give them this time and to concentrate on what they are qualified to do.

I am not sure parental selection of schools as helped either (sorry) as now there are good schools and bad schools in areas. Before this school were a bit more mixed up as children went to the nearest (or catchment one).

Teacher Training needs to be more hands on and look more at dealing with classroom management. Especially as nowadays this is what a teacher has to concentrate on more than teaching! Sad but true. Maybe, doing it in school with day release type of thing for acedimic studying - a bit like the olden days.

Parents must be more involved. Maybe at secondary school all children should sign a contract that sets out what is expected on them and what they get in return. We need zero tolerance on set rules, even the minor ones. I find that if the smaller rules are insisted upon (like uniform, make up, etc.) the bigger ones tend to be sorted out with them. Children have a higher expectation of themselves. Parents should have to have a parent-teacher consultation every year (not sure how this could work but I'd love to see it). This year I have had so many wasted parent's evenings where just 3 or 4 parent's have shown for their appointments - out of my whole classes (often up to about 40-60 possible). At our school parent's often don't support punishments either - don't let their children do lines, detention, etc. But what other punishments can we use?

I think more is needed at primary level too to try and stamp out more problems earlier.

I have suddenly realised I have more thoughts on this than I thought I had! Ooops. There are loads more to be done. Yes, more money to schools, buildings and equipement to be refurbished, more up to date technology (I teach ICT), etc. Enough for now!!!

I can assure you all , my 8 yr old dd is no snob,and she could give the local fishwife a run for her money the way she speaks sometimes.....
inspite of a private education

oh hang on hang on- I went to a private school until 16 (then grammer) and I worked in Sainsbury's every bloody Saturday. Never been anywhere near a hunt ball! Bit of reverse snobbery methinks

OK it is not just snobbery, it is also fear. In London I see people not EVEN CONSIDER the local state school. They are so frightened of social mix. If only all the middle class parents who cared about their children s education in an area had some way of communicating before they made the decision to go private they would feel safety in numbers and all go for it. Within a few years the school would improve. That is why our school is good. Lots of concerned parents joined, developed the PTA, became governors, worked out canny ways to get extra grants and classroom assistants, donated money and help and now it is a good school. I might add it is only half way up the league table in our inner city borough, has a third of children with free school meals and English as second language. But it is a thriving school and my boys are doing fine.

Badmamma - not fear in my case either. Just wanting the best education I can provide, pure and simple.

As I said, I was brought up and lived in a poor council estate, I went to the local comp, I struggled through with disrupted classes and poor behaviour. I got myself an education as I am not the type who got into trouble as a child. True, I now am probably more middle class but I know where I come from too. Even 'posh' kids can be bad too you know.