Don't say Clever Girl or Clever Boy?!

[messymissy]

Did anyone see the horizon programme last night? It purported to be an investigation into the best way to educate our children.

It was a bit thin on the ground for facts or insights (as are many of the horizon programmes these days)

but,

one interesting bit a Dr/expert was advocating that the worse thing you can say to your child is 'What a clever girl / boy'

her reasoning was that it sets the child up to think cleverness is what you value, they will then be too afraid to try anything new, experiment, risk take, in case they get it wrong - and they will feel therefore they are no longer 'clever girl / boy'

she said it was best to say well done etc and reward sustained effort rather than results. Seemed odd at first but the more i think about it, the more I think she is right.

Modern life needs an ability for sustained effort in everything we do, the experts and people talent in arts etc reach there by practice practice and more practice, simply being clever is not answer.

So this morning, i was about to say clever girl but instead said well done....!!

Have I been brainwashed by the TV or do you think there is some truth in this?

ps - having worked in a school for a while in the art department, it was evident that the children would not just draw or paint unless they thought their work was right (correct) they would not experiment, they wanted to be told the work was correct.

I think this is in the Alfie Kohn school of thinking.
I do tend to label the action rather than the person.
I think there's a lot more to original thinking and creativity than whether you were told you were clever or not, though. lol.

I think it depends on how you express your view of "clever boy/girl". I tell my children they are clever for all sorts of things and I tend to link it to a variety of things, "Clever girl - you put your own socks on"
"Clever boy, you pointed out a train to Mummy" etc. So it is not linked to being "right" just to having achieved something, no matter how small.

(My two are very small still )

I used to love being told I was clever when I was little [preen]

This is not the be-all and end-all. I don't think off the cuff compliments cause as much damage as this.

However, I did describe to my DH how an overblown statement of my cleverness did do me harm: When I started GCSE Ancient Greek, I was really enjoying it because it was totally different from anything I'd ever done before. I pottered along doing all the things you do to learn a new language and getting to grips with my first ever dead language where you learn the grammar first.

THEN, parents' evening. Teacher says to my parents, "She's the best student I've had for oh at least ten years." Me totally gobsmacked but after that I freaked. If I was supposed to be that clever, I couldn't possibly try because what if I failed? It was an impossible statement to live up to, and after that I did all my grammar etc. half-heartedly which left me totally useless at it, though I still did it for A-level.

I agree the programme was a bit thin on actual facts or proof - you had to take the experts at their word.

mmmm well I can see their point. I do say clever boy - usually when DS has impressed me by being able to achieve something new, or when he says something thoughtful that shows he's cogitating - in which case I don't even particularly mean it as praise, I'm just remarking on how clever he is being. Maybe I shouldn't - I do think I should make more conscious effort to say "well done" and "good job" and all that stuff. (Which he seems to get a lot at nursery, as he is often telling me things like "Good job mummy, you chopped up the onion by yourself!" )

OTOH - I also would like to resist the general vibe you get at school and in british society generally, that being clever is a bit suspect. If you are naturally on the academic/thinker side, that should be encouraged and you should be helped to see it as a good thing and something to pursue.

There is some evidence on this, but I can't remember what any of it is .

I try not to make generalist statements like "good boy" or "clever boy" but do do more descriptive stuff like "that was very helpful and made my job much easier" or "you used a lot of bright colours there" or "that giraffe looks very happy" or "you thought that out very well". Sometimes I don't manage it and will fall back on a "good boy" or "clever boy" and I don't think that once in a while will warp him for life.

Horizon these days is a scientific desert IMO. It is all about "what exciting/slightly controversial scenario can we film?" and assumes its audience do not have even the slightest grasp on logic, causation or scientific method, and so cannot have the science actually explained to them. It drives me nuts.

i was amazed at the theory behind the money incentive scheme, how do those who cannot score top in tests benefit from this? DD1 is fortunate that she thrives in school so she would be able to provide us the lifestyle to which we would like to become acustomed, But DD2 would starve! She is yet to start school, but we don't expect her to attain the levels her sister has reached, how would she feel.
I couldn't believe the sums involved, some kids had earned hundreds of dollars,

Thanks. I also say Clever girl and follow it up with why... ie clever girl you got your shoes on! and try to reward effort as well, maybe its good to try to balance both.

But, the one fact remains, i think, is that children do thrive on praise - the wider the better. so not just clever, but, helpful, kind, good, patient etc etc.

As for
""I also would like to resist the general vibe you get at school and in british society generally, that being clever is a bit suspect. If you are naturally on the academic/thinker side, that should be encouraged and you should be helped to see it as a good thing and something to pursue.""

I agree but is it cleverness that is seen as suspect or the hard work the kids put into their school work. I know some who will lie to their friends about the amount of time they spend on their homework as too much time / effort is just not cool

the programme showed a school in the USA that paid cash to the pupils who did well in an attempt to get them to put in the effort.

It's certainly given me a lot to think about.

I have hesitated with 'good job' as it sounds a bit American (not that i have anything against Americans i hasten to add, but I can't help saying it without a twang!!!)

As a child I was labelled clever and my sister as pretty, she felt undervalued and thick, i felt bookish and plain.

As for Horizon - what they could have told us is how Mrs Baddiel keeps her hallway floors walls and stairs brilliant white with a 4 year and 7 year old in the house!!!! (frivolous comment i know...)

interesting... was about to post "what a load of psycho-babble nonsense" and then stopped to think...

we have ALWAYS said what a clever boy etc to ds when he does something right. and recently his pursuit of perfection is becoming a real issue for him. if he's making a birthday card and some little thing goes wrong ( a flower doesn't turn out how he wanted?) then he goes into meltdown, the card gets screwed up and he has to start again. IT HAS TO BE PERFECT.

he's 4 so we will turn this around, but am no wondering if it's actually our fault..... (dd being no 2 child has never received such copious praise and has no such qualms!)

Agree about "Good job!" messymissy - I cringe saying it!

I was a "clever" child and my dad in particular I think put too much emphasis on how being clever was the be-all and end-all - and it did make me into a perfectionist and a worrier. But, on the plus side, being academically driven and using my intelligence got me my career which makes me very happy.

I think this is a matter of balance - remembering to praise kids for effort, and reassuring them that they are loved whatever their "performance", is important but if you have that the odd "clever boy" isn't too terrible IMO.

On the flip side - I do think praise for effort can go too far as well. there is that phenomenon you see in reality talent shows etc with kids saying "I really want this, I have put my all into it, my mom believes in me and I will never ever give up until get to live my dream" blah de blah. That's not great either, it's good to be able to accept that there will be some things you will not be great at, and making a brilliant effort won't always cut the mustard.

gladders I don't think your ds' perfectionism is because of the way you've praised him, some children are just like that. dd sets herself incredibly high standards, is always undertaking wildly ambitious projects and gets very cross with herself when they don't go just right, but she's the youngest of 3 so has probably had even less copious praise than your dd! However, it doesn't stop her from trying, failing and then trying again, so I'm not sure that perfectionism is always a bad thing - if it paralysed her into inaction, then it would be, but it doesn't

I was only half watching, but the thing that stuck with me was also the brilliant whiteness of that house with two small children.....

They have a cleaner of course.

Back to the OP, I saw Horizon and that bit did make me think too. But I remember when I did 'speech and drama' classes when I was a child, I was never that talented at it, but got awarded a shield for 'effort', and I felt really patronised, that it meant I wasn't any good but tried hard, pat on the head.

But I do agree with the idea (as put forward in How to Talk so Kids will Listen) that we should be very specific in our praise, so rather than saying, what a lovely picture, say, I really like the way you did that wiggly line in green.

Also agree re Horizon being non-scientific. It was really irritating how it skipped around from one concept to another without really getting to the bottom of anything.

I think they were making the point about rewarding effort rather than natural ability. If my ds does something well I will praise him and interestingly he will always say 'mummy I tried my best'. Not sure where he has picked that up from but I do reinforce it.

I thought the programme was a bit of a mish mash of things but I thought the Harvard economics professor made some interesting points about learning.

didn't see the programme but agree about being specific with praise, such as 'you've chosen fantastic colours for this painting' and 'I like the way you've structured this story' and sort of talk about it from there

• and similarly when commenting on appearance, as in, you look very smart today or that colour looks wonderful on you rather than 'oh you are so beautiful'

I think I got this from being told various things about myself that made me feel under pressure as a child

I didn't see the programme but certainly it is a potential issue, in both directions - i.e. calling your DC a "bad child" if they've done something horrendous, rather than saying "that was a bad thing to do" can stick in their minds, especially pre-4 (when core beliefs about self are mostly set) and up to 7 can be a bit tricky too.

I was mocked a lot at that age (by my parents!) - called a show-off, Miss Know-it-all etc. to try and stop me demonstrating my intelligence and abilities for all to see - result? I stopped trying and became very shy and reluctant to put myself forward. I never really capitalised on my natural intellect - just coasted through.

I'm not sure that it's a bad thing to give your child the idea that they are clever/beautiful/lovely etc., so long as it isn't followed up by expectations and potential parental disappointment.

But definitely the way forward is to praise/condemn the behaviour, not the person (difficult to remember to do it at times!)

I think the point about being specific - saying 'what lovely colours' of a painting or whatever - is probably good. I try to do this with ds's reading, where he's really flying ahead at the moment - tell him it was really good to work out such a complicated word or whatever. Other things I will talk about how hard he tried and so on.

I got a lot of praise for being clever as a child and do wonder whether it made me reluctant to try stuff that I didn't have a natural talent for, like art or sport.

Really enjoyed this prog. Especially the bit about how the children were not interested in the actual answer if they had been taught with results in mind 'OK I got it right, let's move on'...I've seen it and it's interesting to ask, particularly if multi choice tests WHY it is right or wrong or where we went wrong whatever....

Couldn't help saying 'that's clever!' when ds said "it's a really long rectangle" He is clever to say that!
Can't help saying "good job" too. Or saying it with american accent. Think it's a nice alternative phrase if I can't think of anything else.......

Muffle, your flip side point is spot on. the most frustrating thing is being told you did so well for trying yet you still can't get it right

I also saw the programme and have vowed to switch from 'What a clever boy' to 'Good Job'. It does take a bit more effort to give good descriptive praise and I think I've been taking the lazy route.

The other part of the program that fascinated me was the marshmallow part - a 4 yo is told that if they can stop themselves from eating a marshmallow for 10 mins they will get 3 marshmallows, then they are left alone in a room with the marchmallows for 10 mins. It is supposed to be a good predictor of success in later life - the children who can wait will be more successful. Very tempted to try it on ds1 but he is terribly greedy and don't think I'd like the results!

So I can blame my lack of having a high flying career on my mother telling me I was a "clever girl" as a child.

My 17 yr old dd is a prime example of what this woman is talking about.

We or probably me, have alwasy praised her both for her effort but alos for being clever.

She is a very bright girl but very reluctant to try new subjects that she thinks she may fail at.

Lack of confidence in her ability has been a recurring theme in her schooling.

She was sitting next to me when we were watching this and we both were open mouthed with amazement in how that woman summed up dd's attitude of fear of failure and reluctance to strive for something incase she failed.

I do feel guilty now and will change the way I praise ds.

Five reasons to stop saying "good job"

,,,bit sceptic about clever girl being a "bad" thing to say....tbh...I think anything positve will do good...

as for "Good Job"......I HATE that....makes me want to boak...