Don't say Clever Girl or Clever Boy?!

[messymissy]

Did anyone see the horizon programme last night? It purported to be an investigation into the best way to educate our children.

It was a bit thin on the ground for facts or insights (as are many of the horizon programmes these days)

but,

one interesting bit a Dr/expert was advocating that the worse thing you can say to your child is 'What a clever girl / boy'

her reasoning was that it sets the child up to think cleverness is what you value, they will then be too afraid to try anything new, experiment, risk take, in case they get it wrong - and they will feel therefore they are no longer 'clever girl / boy'

she said it was best to say well done etc and reward sustained effort rather than results. Seemed odd at first but the more i think about it, the more I think she is right.

Modern life needs an ability for sustained effort in everything we do, the experts and people talent in arts etc reach there by practice practice and more practice, simply being clever is not answer.

So this morning, i was about to say clever girl but instead said well done....!!

Have I been brainwashed by the TV or do you think there is some truth in this?

ps - having worked in a school for a while in the art department, it was evident that the children would not just draw or paint unless they thought their work was right (correct) they would not experiment, they wanted to be told the work was correct.

The idea is that it's manipulative praise that's the issue.

well....manipulation works so does bribery

But does it nurture the right characteristics?

Or does it create kids who'll only do as much as they need to in order to get rewarding praise or bribes?

well. I didn't say that that is the only thing one should do....but I can't see how it can harm occasionally...iykwim

Oh, I've read something like that Alfie Kohn article before about how praising our children often makes them dependent on us/others for approval rather than having high self-esteem which is often what we are aiming for by praising our children. I must admit that I do all the praising stuff - good job, you've tried hard etc but think that its true - its better that they learn good reasons for themselves, others and society, for behaving in certain ways than just trying to please their parents.

I always praise the effort and not the end result
it is the process that is important

I think there is an age related factor which is important here.

There is evidence to show that aged 0-3, humans brain waves operate at a level similar to being hypnotised (Theta Waves) and this means that they are not consciously thinking, but unconsciously taking on board memories and creating schemas (ways of thinking), and if you believe that the way you think can effect the way you subsequently operate and behave in life, then..........

giving your children praise early in life will create schemas and ways of thinking that will be confident and sure that 'they are worth it'.

But clearly, as they get older children can rationalise their thoughts and praise can be much more realistic and socially conditioned.

So, in summary, I would say praise praise praise 0-3.and after that perhaps you can be more realistic and get them ready for being an independent person but with a schema in place that tells them they are good and worthy people.

you make a very good point there peas

Alfie Kohn is away with the fairies.I am snorting my way indignantly through one of his books at present.
He criticises so many things and offers no concrete alternative stategies apart form wishful thinking about some sort of Utopia in which we all live in some sort of euphoric post Communist existence.

A nice man but the fact that he can't even bring himself to use te expression 'killing two birds with one stone' preferring insead 'feeding two birds from one feeder' tells you all you need to know about him.

Thank God for you Peas! I was getting worried cos obviously I can't reason with a 15mo about why he feels the need to pull the magnetic photo frames off the fridge door and leave them on the floor, refusing to pick them up and put them back until physically manhandled into doing it - so I praise him when they are back in place to show it is a good thing that they are there! Was starting to feel like I might be scarring him for life because of it...

Christ no!!
(Although am partial to a bit o' Boden. Is that ok witcha??!)

I always try to praise the effort rather than just the achievement eg when DCs sit exams they get a small treat when the exams finish (but before the results come out) to say well done for working so hard. Any praise for good results is then linked to the hard work - eg "wow, you really deserve that after all your hard work". After all, not everyone can be top and I want the DCs to feel pride in working hard and doing their best, rather than worrying because they didn't come top.

Ds said to me today.

"Mum it's better to be rubbish at Mathletics - because then you get credits when you get better. If you get 10 straight away you get nothing. xxxx in my class has been able to "buy" an exploding volcano and a pink shirt for his avatar with his credits and he only gets about 3 right. So I am going to play for ages and get the biggest score in New Zealand, which is better than an exploding volcano."

I have read interviews with adults who were gifted children and lots of them say that they were annoyed when people assumed that they found succeeding easy and never said things like "you worked for ages on that, well done."

I use "clever girl" followed up by "for working out that that note must be a G".

Kohn has a point I think, but IME it relates to those parents who do nothing but praise, who take it to extremes. I think if you say clever boy, good job etc in an appropriate way and as part of a range of sensible reactions, that's not so bad. But as he says, when every single thing a child does is met with a torrent of praise, it can make the child's perceptions a bit skewed.

thirtypence that sounds like a really badly designed system!

I remember at primary school there was a special fun activity day for the children who didn't do well, the badly behaved and disruptive ones. A laudable aim but as a high-flyer I remember feeling so upset and ignored. I thought "where is my reward for all that hard work? eh? eh?"

I actually don't think there is anything wrong with saying clever girl/boy if you genuinely mean it.
I think the problem is the way many people talk to their children. So many parents sound so stilted and unnatural as they praise and comment on everything their child does-it must be awful to be talked to like that all day.

I tell my children they are clever. I also tell them they are funny, kind, tired, hungry, speedy, completely filthy, cool, smart, smell lovely, stinky, being a bit mean, generous, beautiful, the best children in the world.

It's always linked to something - not just in a vacuum.

Some of us over analyse how we are bringing up our children - I do it sometimes too. But if your children are generally happy and you are usually fair and loving - chill out and praise them in your own words without worrying.

Actually 'the best children' in the world isn't linked to much other than sudden rushes of love.

I didn't see the programme and haven't read the whole thread, but would say that, in principle, I agree. This is explored in detail in Alfie Kohn's work, and he makes a compelling anti-praise case - even in the 'well done' and 'good throw' and 'good catch' and 'good job' vein. If a parent can't stifle the urge to say something about a child's accomplishments, I think the idea is to enthusiastically say, for example, "You caught the ball!" You're simply stating fact, albeit with enthusiasm, and the child can then feel their own pride in a isolated achievement, rather than taking on an identity of cleverness or the pressure of having to get it right, because that's what's valued.

In my own life, this idea has been borne out. Throughout my childhood, I was The Clever One - labelled as such by well-meaning parents and by many teachers. I excelled at school, but find it hard to be 'brilliant' in adulthood - and I find not being brilliant/the best difficult to handle emotionally, as much as I know, intellectually, that it doesn't matter. I do shy away from trying new things for fear of not doing them perfectly. Not good.

With DS, I try to remember (but often forget!), instead of praising him, to ask how he feels about what he's done or how hard he's tried at something - does he feel proud of himself? Because I believe he should. He needs his own pride, approval and self-belief more than he needs mine.

Message withdrawn

I found this thread really interesting so I watch the programme on BBC iplayer.

I beleive that praise is the most important thing you can give your child. And I don't mean mindlessly saying 'very clever'. I mean love and affection, telling your children you are proud of them and of each achievement they make. I think it's very important that you tell them why you are praising them, as many people have given examples of. I also think there are more powerful ways of praising than saying well done. I think it's the smile and hug that comes with it that a child appreciates and will strive for.

When I was watching the programme I was amazed that they were paying children to do their school work! It's absolutley terrible and they clearly haven't given any thought what messege this is sending those children. Money is not the aim of the game, achievment -resulting in a sense of pride and being able to live your life as you choose i.e doing a job that makes you happy, is what it's all about. Where the bloody hell are the parents? Why isn't a hug and a kiss and an 'I'm very proud of you' enough? because for children that is enough, unless they have been taught that financial gain is more important.

I also felt deperatly sorry for the 2 boys that were maths genius'. It is fanastic that they have achieved so much - don't get me wrong, but what about the rest of life? Isn't there more than long division? They do 3 extra hours of study after school and 5 hours on a non-school day. They are children! The parents seem so much to mis-understand learning. A child learns more by playing with worms in the garden than they do sat a table. They learn to have fun, to enjoy themselves, and isn't that what lifes all about? What's the point in being great at maths if you never actually LIVE?
I think David Baddiel hit the nail on the head when he said "There seems to be no room in that house for imagining that the children may have other talents and other things that they enjoy in life, and that I suppose is the problem". It seems to me that the dad thinks so much about his asparations for the children that he is not letting them find thier own goals in life, comprimising their happiness as adults.

Not totally sure what I think about this but a few things come to mind from my childhood.

My parents put immense pressure on me to achieve. When I thought I might like to be a primary school teacher they told me I should leave jobs like that for people less clever than me. Because of the context in which they praised me, I probably praise my children less than I was praised, because I associated it with feeling pressured. Didn't explain that very well but hope you get the drift.

Having said that, my dd age 7 is the ultimate perfectionist, won't try anything unless she thinks she can do it perfectly and gets frustrated immediately she can't do something, even though she's extremely bright.

So we've obviously gone wrong somewhere.

Thanks for that Peas and Moondog - I too started feeling a sense of dread at how much praise I've been giving my three year old DD.

I thought praising good behaviour and hard work was good parenting!

I will calm it down though, she does appear to be a bit of a praise junkie, but they all do at her age I think

Hi ya,

I agree with givepeas - up to a age little ones need plenty of generalised praise but once they can start to think critically and assess there own work, it has to be more specific to hold any value.

and...the things we praise them for change as their abilities grow, i doubt i will still be saying clever girl when she puts her shoes on the right feet at age 6, I'll just expect that she can do this.

Pitch - you have a very astute little boy there. Hopefully he will realise that the words the teacher / TA use are meant to encourage rather than 'grade' and he will take it as the praise it is meant to be.

On the whole, I think that it is rewarding the effort AND the end result that counts.

As for praising good behaviour - had to do that all the time on my teaching course - trying to catch the kids doing something good was the hard bit! But depending on the age, it can sound patronizing and kids see straight through it. There is also a school of thought that says if you use praise as a reward for certain behaviours, the children are learning to do it for the reward, not because it is the right thing to do. They should be expected to behave, by self correcting, rather than waiting for the reward.