waldorf steiner

[heninthemidden]

hi,

anyone had good experience of waldorf steiner education system?

I've been watching this thread with interest.

I only hope that my presence doesn't get it deleted.

It would be quite strange if that happened; confirm the fact that there's more going on than meets the eye in this.

Disenchantedgnomie- I only want to say it will turn out ok. Our children are now thriving, having had a very rough ride; they were confused and upset, had sort of "shut down" in their last period at Steiner school. To see light in their eyes again was fantastic.
It took a while for them to catch up academically; the youngest, hardly reading at 7, learnt incredibly quickly, and is an avid reader now. The eldest has struggled academically the most. She was diagnosed as dyslexic after leaving Steiner school; they hadn't/wouldn't pick up on this. I'm not sure if they recognise it actually, I think it may be an "incarnation problem", or something to do with karma. Her secondary school is fantastic- she adores it, and will apparently do absolutely fine.
Our middle daughter, always an avid bookworm before Steiner, (she went at 7, and had to "forget" all her reading and writing- it wasn't allowed) had a hard time at the school. She's now loving school and is unrecogniseable from the quiet sad girl she was at Steiner school.

Children are adadptable. If they're happy and fulfilled, they'll be ok.

Maria, the thing which makes Steiner schools different fom other faith schools, is that they hide their belief.

As far as I'm concerned, the two HUGE wrongs with their system is this deceipt, and the fact that anthroposophy is based on a belief of evolution which places races in a hiersrchical order, giving some races higher qualities than others.

As Jjsand cat have pointed out, the schools treat Steiner's work as some sort of "origional text" which they refer constantly , to see what he "indicated".

Since his evolutionary belief is central to anthroposophy, it's easy to see how it can slip in, covertly or otherwise. I think this happened at the school our were, badly affecting one of our dc's; although it's impossible to prove what was going on in the mind of the teacher isn't?

zazizoma Have you read much of Steiner's work? What anthroposophical belief involves?

Thank you Northern for the support.

I am guessing this btw - I think you will be allowed to post on here as long as you don't link to any of his quotes etc. I reckon your living experiences will be enough.

I also notice on another blog that you are being stalked again.

I think that the main problem is that they sit on the fence about this and can't quite decide where they stand. Other faith schools state that they are faith schools but will then have rigorous policies on inclusion. I don't see it as a conspiracy, more as a lack of clarity which inevitably results in people feeling like they have been led up the graden path.

It also means that the teachers are left to field debates and criticism and have no clear guidelines about what is appropriate to say to parents. There is a difference between stating, "I believe watching tv is damaging in early childhood." and "Watching tv is damaging in early childhood, I know you don't agree, but I'm right cos Steiner said so (so my colleague told me), so please throw away your tv and trust me on this.... oh and you could also hang some muslins up while you're redecorating. This would definitely help your maniacally depressed six year old to stop swearing at the other children in KG."

Hi disenchanted
I hope your guess is right.
It was never actually established what the "promotion of libel" was. I'd be surprised if it was Steiner's quotes about race, skin colour, blond hair etc.

Yes, I'm getting used to being followed around.

Maria- I agree that many steiner teachers get in a flustered muddle when asked things and they're not sure how much they can giuve away....but I think more often than not, they have guidlines about not giving things away to parents. There are numerous pieces where teachers have stated that they were told not to say things about anthroposophy; even an anthro press agent -in their magazine, "Anthroposophy Worldwide" 4/2000, p 12, " The press agent has to convey the outer appearance of things rather than the essential core. A deep esoteric background is necessary to make the essential core comprehensible." (Referring to their new press agent, Ursa Krattiger)
The whole angle is that parents "don't understand" or "aren't ready".

But of course, they can't have it both ways. Because of the internet, because it's easier and easier to read Steiner, see what anthroposophy really means, rather than the fluffy "head heart hands" "thinking willing feeling" stuff the schools spout, they have more to deal with, more questions to answer, and the teachers are probably in danger of finding out too much!
Because many teachers are "on the path" too- their reading material and training only involves a fragment, the "new age" spirtual part of anthro belief; as far as I understand it- there are usually one or two anthro experienced teachers at the helm of the schools, orchestrating the others. But I suspect there are fewer and fewer; I think it's probably hard to recruit Steiner staff, not surprisingly.
I alson read somewhere that there's a lot of conflict within the movement; as to reform, disclosure ( meaning how much they goive away) and whether state funding will "dilute" steiner waldorf educational ethos.

Jeremy Smith, the communications officer for the Steiner waldorf schools Fellowship said he would like to see more anthroposophists teaching at the schools. That worries me, paticulary since the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship is the umbrella organisation for Steiner schools in UK, and they sponsor the Hereford academy

LOL at your last sentence!

Northernrefugee -- what happened when your dd turned up at Steiner school as a literate 7yo? I've always been told they let the children get on with it if they've learnt by themselves, that the main objection is to actually teaching them before they're ready (which I would have some sympathy with). But it sounds like your experience was not like that?

Frogs- it was strange actually; she really was very good at reading, she loved it.

I remember asking if it was ok, how would this affect her within a class where they had barely started on the basics; it was brushed aside, her teacher said it wouldn't be an issue,and she wanted she could read at home. They would do so much art, craft, music etc, it wouoldn't make a difference.

As far writing was concerned, the steiner way is to teach them to write before reading, but of course she could write already, and I was afraid she would get bored, feel different etc. Which did happen. She reverted. They used to do these enormous capitals in stumpy wax crayon. I asked her teacher many times if he could use at least a pencil and write properly, but they weren't allowed "points".

I began arguing about it way back then, lol- even when I had no idea about the anthro stuff!

I had a kind of naive assumption that in that very small class- there were only about 10 of them, the teacher would say that because she could write already, she could do her own stuff, until the others caught up. But of course this didn't happen, she lost all of her early learning. Even aged 9, Steiner children write in massive wax crayon chunks- huge letters. And they have to do a hazy scribble background before the can start writing. This stops any kind of flow of ideas. But they aren't meant to have ideas, to much academic stimulation before the age of 14 damages the astral body.

But, thank god, she has got her imaginitive flow back again finally. It did stop at steiner.

I find it hard to think back on all this stuff and not feel racked with guilt for allowing it to happen.
Even writing about that - my dd having to drop and hide all that part of herself for some man's loopy spiritual beliefs.

That's really interesting, NR. Presumably you carried on reading with her at home? Did that affect her attitude to school?

We had a v. odd week with the steiner-educated ds of a relative who at 8.5 couldn't read, and wasn't allowed story tapes or CDs or videos/DVDs. Compared with my same-age dd1, who by that time had read her way through the bulk of Egnlish children's fiction, it was as if his brain was running on idle, hugely understimulated. He had a selection of weird tic-cy activities, would flick switches on and off for ages at a stretch, but couldn't concentrate or settle to anything, and completely incapable of occupying himself.

It was quite a disturbing experience, actually. I'd always thought of steiner as quite benign in a tree-huggy way, and even vaguely considered it for dd1 when I was being all PFB about my little baby going to big school. But in fact the Steiner children i've since encountered have actualy been quite aggressive rather than calm maybe in reaction to the Steinery calmness? The only punchup we've ever had at our house (and my dc are at inner-London state schools) involved this little boy, who punched dd1 full in the face during a minor altercation over a toy she had a nosebleed, black eye and her glasses were broken, so not just a minor scrap. All very, very odd, i thought.

Oh yes- she read avidly at home- all very un-steiner type books! Looking back I think it was her way of escaping from the nonsense of the day.
Her teacher apparently always started her pronouncements with "Everything I tell you is true". My dd sometimes tried to question it, but the teacher became incensed (she was a real shouter) and my dd was scared and gave up.
Steiner children aren't meant to question their teachers.
So my dd was often confused- I used to answer that unicorns and mermaids were just in stories for instance, and we were unlikely to actually see one, where as her teacher was telling her all this stuiff about gnomes and fairies - and I dare say a WHOLE lot more, was true.

They weren't allowed story tapes or "recoreded" music. Everything had to be "live". I remember arguing that they dismissd a huge chunk of 20 century culture in one fell swoop!

But it was quite funny, because mothers are mothers where ever they are, and they really didn't like seeing my 7 yr old reading books in the car or waiting to pick up her sister! The other children wanted to as well! So the anthro mums used to read to their kids, more and more complicated stuff, just to make sure my dd wasn't going to have any advantage!

The things you say about no story tapes etc and strange tics is familiar. One little boy we used to know very well as we drove them to school, had strange tics. He was highly imaginative, and had notebooks filled with stories in capitals an lots of drawings of figures, which he was almost secretive about. He was really sensitive, but two boys relentlessly bullied him, nasty physical fights, blows and punches, similar to your descritions.
On one occasion, they took his special book, ripped out the pages and stamped on it. His Dad brought it up at a parents evening, but no one really said anything; apart from any other reason, a personal imaginitive little book like that wouldn't have been seen as suitable or appropriate- too many pointed drawings, too much writng, no colour, not spiritual bla bla.

Your experience with the children who were agressive rings many bells....and ties in with the terrible problem of bullying at steiner schools which one hears about so often. A combination of boredem and lack of stimulation which leads to agression. And of adults alowing it to happen as a playing out of karma and past life issues....

There were things that happened in the village where ours went, which went beyond normal child like behaviour imo. Kittens and guineapigs killed, chicks kicked around, a lot of bullying, dangerous escapades, buildings set on fire etc etc, all told to me by either mine or other kids, all belittled and tried to be covered up.
The complete opposite of the picture of gentle, spiritual places....
But the teachers treated the children quite roughly apparently too....I have to say "apparently" because mine, and other people's children , told me.

OMG Northern, everything that you have written above is so similar to our own experiences that I almost feel like we were at the same school! - I doubt it really but the bullying, the coverups, the children who were out of control, the anthro parents with a superiority complex. I feel so angry, sad, let down....

That poor little boy, how desperately sad for him and his parents.

Do you know if he is still there?

No, they pulled him out (cos they moved country) and he's back in mainstream, doing okay I think. But I think it is quite a hard thing to cut off from completely, as so much of it is odd but apparently harmless -- the cutting the corner off paper for example, that was very strange. And the fact that all the pictures look the same. DD2 used to do a saturday ballet class in the local steiner school (not run by them, just a teacher using the building) and I was fascinated but oddly creeped out by the pictures and the endless wax drawings in teh exercise books. The fact that they seem to learn to write in capitals is odd too, and contrary to everything we know about literacy development.

Shame really, the PR is good, and somehow you want to believe that this lovely little alternative existence is possible.

disenchanted, it does get better, as your children get better...but as you can see, I'm still angry..... after about two years. Why I still write about our experience, go on blogs etc, is because it's intolerably wrong that people should be sucked into this huge thing without knowing, being told, the full implications.

If parents are happy with anthroposophy underpinning the schools, fine. But they have a right to be told about it, how it will be used in the classroom.

The more I read of Steiner, the more I realise things that happened in class, or were taught, are completely related to his bizarre, world view and belief system anthroposophy, from the content of the curriculum, and why things are taught when, to why for instance Norse Myths are favoured over the Mabinogion or Celtic myth, why the class rooms are painted the colours they are (peach blossom in the lower classes, through to bluey greens), to the type faces, the rounded corners on the kindy washy "paintings", to why my daughter was "encouraged" to use her right hand.....

I read the other day that steiner believed the devil lived in right angles......curvy everything....buildings, banisters, paper... actually, not tables. My dd has a scar on her forehead where she cracked her head open on a "pointed" corner playing a game of cat and mouse in a German lesson... they probably thought it was karma, and the devil was in there.....

Justabout -- I can only go on my experience, but it was true of all the children in this family. The oldest ds was a bright boy, and it just felt as if all the space that in my dd1 was filled with interesting ideas from books was just vacant and waiting to be filled. As if he was just in a holding pattern waiting for something to come along and fill the space inside him.

And i didn't find him particularly able to engage with nature either -- we were staying in the depth of the countryside for a week, admittedly it was Autumn half-term and pouring with rain, but mine were all outside in their waterproofs, or wanting to go in the sea in their wetsuits, and he couldn't really deal with any of that. He just kept complaining that he'd get sore ears if he went out in that weather.

Yes, Steiner parents would have you believe that - but take them away from the relentless tedium of copying from the blackboard under the teacher's beady eye and hand twitching to write their name on the board (three strikes and you miss break) and they don't know what to do with themselves.
Or walk into a classroom where the teacher has gone out (or sometimes before the lesson has started and the teacher is there) and you'll find them swinging from the light fittings, climbing anything they can, jumping over desks and scribbling on the board.
And the parents see nothing wrong with this behaviour - the strongest reaction you'll see is an indulgent smile.
Of course, the behaviour is merely the child's 'sanguine' nature coming out, and if they can't control their temper it's because they're 'coleric.'
My DS1 was labelled 'phlegmatic' (read lethargic/indolent), which made it easier for the teacher to write him off as unhelpful and disrespectful rather than address the fact that he was bored stiff and couldn't do right for doing wrong in her eyes.

Oh, and he was sent for extra eurythmy because 'his consciousness doesn't fully extend to the tips of his fingers.'
Arse.

heninthemidden -
I considered steiner schools (there is one locally), but after I had researched the philosophy behind them, and some of the things that Steiner wrote, I dropped the idea pretty smartly.
As others have said, please do your own research, not just listening to positive recommendations from Steiner parents (who presumably are either unaware, or agree with Steiners views).

If you want to opt out of structured education, why not try Montessori?

Neurological development, i.e. myelination, runs down and out from head or top to bottom, shoulders to fingertips, hips to toes, internal to external, as far as I know.

If anyone wants to 'opt out of structured education,' I'd say Montessori was the last place they should go.
I visited a nursery and was creeped out to find three year old's quietly doing puzzles and 'playing' with educational toys at desks - and only one 'toy' allowed out at a time.
And they used to go to the playground all tied up to a rope!

Hi justa - at the school ours went to, they were exposed to quite a lot of what I considered risk and danger- swimming on Ascension day - June/- in a high hill lake covered in weed and DEEP in the middle of no where. (The adults didn't go in the water!) - walking along the edge of cliffs, playing with glowing fireworks- throwing them about, climbing on diggers and jumping off one, having released the break and letting it roll down a hill, jumping and swinging off bridges over small gorges, climbing on roofs, setting buildings alight- all apparently happened at the school ours were at, during unsupervised lunch hours...school trips, celebrations, etc ( I say "apparently, because the children told me...different children on different occasions, including ours, but the same story...)

Apparently, the children have guardian angels watching them, so they're ok. And if something happens- it's karma- it was meant to.....

nontoxic- that all sounds so familiar.
Was it extra "curative" eurythmy he had to endure? To help his "incarnation"? Did the school anthroposophical "doctor" recommend it?

isenhart7- is "consciousness" affected by myelin? I thought it was a sort of sheaf surrounding a nerve fibre. Neurological developpment isn't associated with "soul consciousness" usually, unless you are talking about an anthroposophical movement like eurythmy.
Are you the isenhart who contributes here, at this group which observes critics of Steiner waldorf?
With these strange, and frankly spooky posts about demons, forked tails, torture, the anti christ and 666...
look at this- creepy, bonkers...who are these people?

"It's eternal torture
Kill them slowly"

groups.yahoo.com/group/WC_Observer/message/431

groups.yahoo.com/group/WC_Observer/message/431