waldorf steiner

[heninthemidden]

hi,

anyone had good experience of waldorf steiner education system?

How can you not believe that a school for little kids having a hidden agenda is relevant?!?

I'm going to send my 3 year old to a school taught by religious nuts who hide their nutty beliefs so they can sink their hooks into my child, and that is not relevant????

There is something very wrong with your perspective. Or you have been brainwashed. Or something. Your reaction to this is not that of a normal parent.

I don't think anyone has insulted you personally - people have talked about their negative experiences and pointed out what they see as a hidden agenda and you have chosen to take umbrage.

Tellingly, you haven't attempted to disprove any alleged agenda - your comment in your last post claims that 'any debate about a hidden agenda...is irrelevant.'

I don't care if you change your way of thinking or not - however, I do object to your suggestion that this 'education/lifestyle choice' should be funded by taxes.

And before you go into a huff about being insulted again, may I point out that anyone with the most basic grasp of semantics would struggle to find an insult in anything I've just said.

I think a lot of parents think the Steiner approach to education is very valid - that's why I sent my child to Steiner kindy. What I had absolutely no idea about until he started having problems was the completely bonkers way they viewed his SN for example, and the reason I had no idea was because they were not upfront about it in the slightest. The word "reincarnation" wasn't mentioned once during the open days, in the prospectus or any of the publicity. We were upfront with them - we told them right from the start that ds had Tourette's and were slightly surprised that they didn't ask more questions, but at the time thought "hey, they're so inclusive it doesn't matter" .

The reason some of us sound angry is that we were fooled into putting our children into physical and emotional danger - and I'm not stating the case too strongly, if anything I'm being very restrained.

If I'd been told that the teachers would stand by and do absolutely nothing when ds burnt his hand during the sodding advent spiral because they "didn't want to upset the energy of the ceremony", that I would find one of ds' class mates 500 yards up the road 20 minutes after school started - he'd just wondered off and no-one had noticed - that ds would constantly be coming home with bumps, bruises, cuts but that was "ok, because a) it was his karma and b) he'd learn not to do whatever it was again" there's no way that I'd have sent him there for a milisecond - would you???

Crumbs, mimsmum, I think we got off lightly (just the bullying and the ritual shunning for being ex state school), although we only stuck it for three years - who knows what might have gone on if we'd stayed longer?
Although we did encounter a lot of wierdness, and I suffered a dip in my already fragile confidence thanks to the shunning.

I completely agree with Maria33 in that any curriculum is only as good as the people delivering it. Mimsum's experience sounds horrible, and it also sounds to me as if the people attempting to teach her DS were simply not acceptable as teachers.

I'm not having this problem at all at my DS's kindy.

Cote - I simply don't buy the whole hidden agenda story. I have too much faith in the power of individuality. I do not believe that a curriculm or teaching method is going to convert anybody to anything. It seems you are attributing a great deal of power to anthropops, who in my experience are often soft elderly ladies swathed in wool, not Falun Gong with his 'you'll be converted by the time you finish the book whether you like it or not.' That being said, I would also be comfortable sending my child to an Islamic or Catholic school if the teaching methodology was inspiring. Steiner school obviously wasn't your cup of tea, but please allow me to enjoy mine.

I would very much like to find a way forward with the fabulous elements of the Steiner curriculum, rather than discard the whole package because of what I see as implementation issues.

I'd be very worried to find taxpayers money being used to fund schools which were not required to teach the same curriculum, or where the teachers did not have to have the same qualifications, as in other state schools. Or which were not open and up-front about the "belief" elements of their teaching.

Personally, I would prefer not to have any faith schools in the state sector, but while we do it's hard to argue against other belief systems having state funded schools. But all of them need to be very open and honest about what they are teaching and the beliefs they are modelling to the children.

And that I think is the issue with Steiner Waldorf schools. They may have many good points, but as long as they are based on beliefs which they do not openly admit to parents, they are suspect so far as I am concerned.

re: being insulted

Please allow me to clarify . . .
I was initially offended by Barking's reference to "brides of steiner," and the suggestion that I was one of these. I felt it was dismissive.
Aurora's post was sarcastic about expecting the pleasure of the company of Steiner parents, of which I am one, as my DS is in a Steiner kindy. Again, I felt it was generalising and dismissive.
Yurtgirl's hope that I become enlightened . . . again, I found this dismissive and treating me like a child, disrespecting my own intelligence and experience.
For the same reasons I found the Rationalist's post about how I'm going to be pulled in to something insulting as well.
I was mostly surprised by Cote's unusual hostility toward thecaty.
And finally, Jazz's conspiracy theory about thecaty and me being the same person was indicative once again of a general dismissive attitude toward my perspective.

Forgive me for any overreaction, I am over it. I wonder if these people know how they are sounding?

I really agree with zazizoma and AnarchyAunt. I think the tone of the anti-anthro posters is very aggressive but that's because people are angry and there clearly is a debate to be had.

I just don't believe that there would be any Steiner schools at all in the UK if they were all run like the one we experienced, so I am perfectly prepared to believe that there are schools that give a wonderful and rounded education.

I also don't have any problems with anthroposophists. I absolutely believe that people are entitled to whatever spritual beliefs they choose to adhere to. I do however, have a problem with people who believe that their beliefs allow them to step outside the law or to disregard the beliefs of others. What happened in our school, was the minute that anyone raised any very legitimate complaint about bullying, poor behaviour, poor delivery of the curriculum, the lack of health and safety procedues, the lack of child protection procedures, the unreasonable demands being placed on parents, the aggressive reprimanding of parents for their home life etc etc, they had reams of incomprehensible spiritual mumbo-jumbo thrown at them. When anyone uses their spiritual beliefs to justify poor practice it becomes fanaticism and this is unacceptable.

Zazizoma - I agree that state funding is absolutely the way forward for Steiner/Waldorf schools as this will give them adequate funding and hold them accountable for the education they provide. I don't see it as being about funding a strange spriitual belief system, I see it being about protecting children. However, I have met a number Steiner educators (strangely the same ones who find themselves unable to stop children hitting each other in their classrooms) who argue that state funding would lead to the dilution of Steiner education AND that State funded Steiner schools in other countries are not 'real' Steiner schools.

Also, Zazizoma, you are right about those special people. Our school was founded by one such person. She was an anthroposophist, and she was one of the most amazing people I have ever met. Unfortunately she retired and after she left, the school took about three months to unravel. However, I don't think you can have a system that relies on every school having one uniquely dynamic person at its heart. Although people like this will always raise the possibilities of any educational system, you should be able to provide adequate care and learning with ordinary mortals. I think the SWSF should have new schools on a much tighter leash...

amum . . .

I am very aware that state funding is a can of worms. We have a lot more debate about it in the US than here. England has set a precendent with the opening of academy schools, and I know that many continental countries provide a range of state schools with different curriculums and methodologies. I personally like the diversity.

The Steiner school we are associated with does not teach any beliefs. The intent behind the people running the school is to provide a progressive, stimulating, creative and individually-focused education for my DS.

I'm not having the same issues that other people have complained about, where anthroposophy is leaking into the curriculum and teaching practice, so I don't believe the problems are actually rooted in the Steiner curriculum.

Blimey maria33 an excellent sum up of the system. 6 months ago I would have been in total denial because I wanted it to work for my child and for me. Of course when you are aware of the cracks and you start to look even more closely like checking on your childs progression in reading - you become even more aware of serious problems that are being covered up and/or excused.

Nontoxic - the bullying is horrendous and I despair at the thought that some of the parents and children are suffering in silence - it makes me feel so sad. And the ritual shunning is well......I am also finding it hard to comprehend that these very people choose an education where one of the main tenets is to care for less fortunate people. Double standards springs to mind and I don't wish to be a part of it anymore.

Thank you Maria33. I also appreciate and agree with your clear statement about fanaticism. I believe you have offered much to move this discussion forward, and have a future in mediation.

The point that I would like to make to the anti-anthro posters is that yes, I do believe that this fanaticism can arise in a Steiner school, I agree that it is unacceptable, and I am sympathetic with your experiences. But to say that all Steiner-inspired school are operating under an agenda to convert people to Anthropo is as absurd as saying that all children who read early won't enjoy reading as an adult. It simply isn't true.

One does not require a hidden agenda to be a fanatic. The belief that an ideal, or the closest thing to an ideal education, is being offered suffices.

Did someone claim that there is a negative correlation between early reading and reading enjoyment as an adult?

Unless Isenhart7 and the rest of the movement are playing you all for fools...

groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/37313

(Isenhart7 also posts as Val2160)

and here

groups.yahoo.com/group/WC_Observer/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1

anthroposophy tomorrow

and WC Observer

Let's see now, I've stated twice in this thread that I'm a long-time Steiner parent. Long-time as in long-time past Kindy. This does not, as far as I know, alter the underlying cause for fanaticism in Ws's nor the fact that it was reading fluency not reading enjoyment that was the question raised in this thread.

zazizoma - re "I simply don't buy the whole hidden agenda story."

It is evident and your refusal to see it is denial at best and intellectual dishonesty at worst.

They believe education is a means to facilitate the reincarnation of some soul into our children's little bodies. They believe in spirits, spirit world, gnomes (no, really), reincarnation, and homeopathy. These are very important not only their perspective as human beings but also their teaching.

Yet none of this is mentioned to a prospective Steiner parent. That is the very definition of a hidden agenda. How do you not see this?

"I do not believe that a curriculm or teaching method is going to convert anybody to anything."

Excuse me. Do you actually have children?

At the age of 3, children believe anything you tell them. Anything at all.

"I would also be comfortable sending my child to an Islamic or Catholic school if the teaching methodology was inspiring"

Oh yes? I hear there is a great madrasa in Pakistan. Very inspiring

LOL @ "anti-anthro" to critics of Steiner schools

Is that like being called "anti-Semite" when you criticize the state of Israel?

I know the Steiner parents on this committee find the work going on in Pakistan schools v. inspiring. Perhaps Newsweek said it best!

Cote, I said

I think the tone of the anti-anthro posters

NOT

I think people on here criticising Steiner schools are aggressive. Perhaps anti-anthro was a little ill chosen but it's a mumsnet thread not a PhD dissertation so I don't think for that long before I type.

If you don't think that some of the things said about anthros are anti-anthro or aggressive, then perhaps we define "aggressive" a little differently. I suspect that people would choose their language a little more carefully if they were writing about a more mainstream religious belief system.

I suspect there are anti-anthro posters on here - and proud

Isenhart -
One does not require a hidden agenda to be a fanatic. The belief that an ideal, or the closest thing to an ideal education, is being offered suffices.

That's exactly it! When you think you have all the answers, you stop questioning and challenging and that's when it all gets very weird and insular. I think this happens in some Steiner schools and if the movement wants to survive and modernise it needs to move past "Steiner said" and understand that the world has moved on. When people quoted Steiner at me it used to freak me out. Do you know that even the colour the walls are painted was decided by Steiner? FFS Farrow and Ball, Dulux and Crown hadn't even been invented . Where do you think he'd have stood on the wallpaper issue? People seemed to get so involved in what Steiner thought that they stopped thinking themselves.

I heartily second Maria33 on the need for the movement to move past Steiner says. I remember walking into the office of a well-established Waldorf School in California many years ago to find the school admin and several lower school teachers on the floor amidst a stack of Steiner books. I asked what they were doing and they said "We're looking for some indication of what a school letterhead should look like." I laughed, until I realised they were serious.
I have found that a significant sector of 'the movement' has done just this, moved on past Steiner said. I haven't heard the term once at my DS's kindy. (We've even dropped Sagitar and moved on to Century Gothic.) I believe that the more comfortable a teacher is with what they are doing, the more they feel they can adopt the curriculum as their own, and shape it to be appropriate to the world today.
This perhaps is why I'm so insistent that a discussion of what he did indeed say is so very very irrelevant. In the context of what Maria33 has described, who exactly would be holding a conversion agenda?

The wallpaper would def be a no-go.[wink}

Zazi, you wrote: "I do not believe that a curriculm or teaching method is going to convert anybody to anything."

That's a load of bull and you know it. As cote said, small children believe anything they are told!! Especially if it comes from a teacher who is a person they admire and love or who's authority they respect.

Look at some madrassas and other ideologically minded schools to see that their belief system gets incorporated in the students who attend.

I, for one (and I'm sure others agree), would not send my child to a school which teaches an ideology I do not believe in.

I wish for my child to become integrated into our society, to become an integral part and support said system with the things he's learned. I DO NOT BELIEVE, THAT STEINER PREPS MY CHILD FOR A FUTURE IN OUR SOCIETY.

Unless you want to be a space cadet...

The idea of funding any ideologically driven school with state money is absurd. The national system is stretched as it is to provide a school system on solid facts as it is, why should the state fund a school that teaches Aryan bollocks which is in no way a preparation for a child's life in our society.

What about Muslim, Catholic and CofE schools? New legislation allows for schools of different ideologies to be funded. The right and wrongs of this were debated in Parliament about 3 years ago. These schools can apply for 'grant maintained status' and the fact that they offer something of a different ideology is precisely the point. It's called diversity.

If you think Steiner spoke bollox ergo Steiner schools are bollox, then don't send your kids to one. But for lots of people it's not so black and white. I know lots of atheists who send their kids to religious schools for all sorts or reasons.

I don't think anyone still left on this thread is trying to deny that some of what Steiner wrote is abhorrent by the standards of today and that everything he wrote has to be read with the understanding that he lived over a century ago in a country where Facism was on the rise.

The interesting conversation to be had, imho, is what happens to Waldorf education when you start to move away from Steiner and redefine it for today's world. I completely agree that in my kid's sws there were definite underlying tones of racisim and patriarchy that absolutely no one was being made to think about and I was astounded by some of the things that were said (I'd also like to add that I've heard some pretty unenlightened things from teachers in non-steiner schools) . In the school I was at, there was fierce resistance to this or any kind of serious debate (which is surely about fear) and I am interested and relieved to hear that this is not the case everywhere.

Also, the key difference in my experience, about teachers saying dodgy things in Steiner and non-Steiner schools is that in a non-Steiner school people are obliged and often willing to engage with your objections in an open and transparent way. In the Steiner school my dc's went to, any such challenges were met by a blanket passive aggressive, "Well, that's how we do things in Steiner Schools."

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