Should giving a bursary to an existing pupil count towards the 'charity provision' of a private school?

[gaussgirl]

Seriously, what do you think?

Someone I know has 2 x DSs at a private prep, largely financed via Daddy's banking bonus. That has gone up in smoke. My acquaintance says it'll be OK as she's SURE the school will give them some financial help because they will want to keep such 'in-house' school socialised DCs, AND by providing bursaries in this way, the school will be able to meet its 'doing good for the wider community' (or however it goes) commitment to enable it to maintain its charitable status.

Sadly I suspect she's right- it will! Privilege has always begat privilege.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the charity status thing- as long as the school IS actually providing a genuine community service! But I'd think paying for a DC from a poor home to get the sort of education available to the wealthy at this school would meet the criteria better than keeping 'one of their own' in clover.

I suspect it would n't come out of the bursary fund per se unless dc move from one part of the school to another so are then considered with others. There are usually short term finances available anyway for circumstances such as sudden illness or redundancy but used on a discretionary basis, so maybe more for a child with a year or two left or facing exams rather than a Reception aged one.

It's up to the school and the school's compliance with the Charity Commission's new rules. If giving this family bursaries complies with the Charity Commission rules, the school's entitled to do it. If not, then the school can still choose whether or not to. I'm not entirely sure it's any of your business, except that your acquaintance sounds a bit self-satisfied about it (which is probably annoying, but it might be bravado to hide that she's in fact feeling very scared about her change in circumstances).

The bursar at my sons' school recently withdrew a means tested bursary when the recipient family had an extention built on their house. Quite right too.

Bink, I know it might not look like my business but to be honest, it is seeing as I'm a tax payer and the money the school gets to effectively withhold from the taxman using its Charity Status shield has to come from SOMEWHERE, doesn't it?

I think that the bursaries are for children who's parents are unable to afford the fees but would benefit from being there and benefit the school. There are strict criteria and they would look at their income indepth. The forms are a nightmare. Some schools won't offer a bursary to parents who own their own homes, others with a parental income more than 20k, others less than this.

To be honest, I don't think she is right but it depends on the school.

Yes, but then you should have a beef with the Charity Commission, not the school or your acquaintance (unless she's so annoying that beefs are all she is)

I must say I'd imagined you'd have to be on a really low income to get a look in on the Bursary front, but the person of whom I speak isn't eating out of skips exactly! She still is quite convinced that they'll get a bursary, though- don't know how much homework she's done.

She evidently feels her DCs are of enormous benefit to the school (the eldest is lined up for the upper school in Sept 09) though both are near the bottom of their classes, intellectually, seeing as the school IS selective! Yes, I KNOW there's more to school life than passing endless exams at straight A BUT you can be sure that DC from the poor home would be taken on purely for their ability to pass those exams!

I will readily say, before anyone else, yes, these is an element of jealousy here. I really don't see why effectively my tax money should go into financing her DCs to have an education that will give them an undeniable advantage over MINE when the day comes- (which it seems to have done!) that she cannot finance it herself?

I'm also talking of the MORAL aspect of this, not just the legal one. I'm surprised there isn't more of a fuss about it, tbh- this whole Charity thing.

My problem isn't directly with private schooling as such, it's the fact we all pay for it via the effective 'tax loss' charity status brings, THEN we hear about these cases which are rubbing our noses in it, are they not?

Looking at the bumph on bursaries at prep schools near me, I suspect you'd need to earn significantly less than a banker's salary (even withou bonus) to qualify. See here, for example.

There's normally a que for these aswell, those more in need normally recieve full bursary, others less. It does depend on the school policies. It's not just the tax that pay's, it's the other parents too. They will look at everything they have, and stocks and shares, the house, savings etc. I think the chances of them getting any help are very slim but you never know.

agree with port & lemon - at ds's school they won't even consider you for a bursary unless gross household income is below £45k.

unlikely that anyone in the banking sector who gets a big bonus in the goos time would be even within spitting distance of this...

is this for real?

I know nothing about the bursary end of this, but am quite cynical about the 'charitable provision' a local highly-regarded school's charitable contribution involves running a 'discovery day' for more able Y4 and Y5's in the local (quite leafy) primary schools. Thereby (a) making life v. easy for themselves (b) carrying out an immensely effective marketing exercise all the kids came backing going 'Wow, it was so cool, I want to go to H! and (c) giving themselves a sneak preview of the local state school talent. In addition to keeping the charity commissioners happy, of course.

Message withdrawn

When the charity commission is looking at the "benefit" the school is giving to the community, they will look at how the bursaries are given out - how families are chosen to receive them, and whether it is actually allowing bright-but-poorer local children access to the school. They won't be conned by schools giving help to this kind of family.

If the school has funds to help out in this way, then that's their choice, but I don't think they'll get any "points" from the charity commission for it.

Bursaries normally have a cut off point of 50kish no?
I think it's a bit crap to be honest 'cos you just end up with middle clss teachers kids snaffling them up.
I think school should actively seek out kids to offer them to - liase with local schools in difficult areas see if anyone would benefit from the sports/music ...not just academic stuff.
Why not contact SS and see if any 'looked after' kids would benefit?
Have told our head all this but not getting anywhere.

Our local private school foundation has a massive pot for children living within a certain postcode (luckily ours!) and provides discounted fees for households with an income of less than £100k. I think this is pretty generous, and applies to all those that pass the entrance exam. I think 1 in 4 children at the 3 schools (1 prep, 2 seniors) get some sort of fee assistance.

They also run a state/private school partnership with access to their sport and science facilities, which are pretty top notch.

I am hopeful that DS will pass the exam.

Your views are laughable, Gaussgirl.

If a school had to close down because of the withdrawal of charity status, it would cause the taxman a much bigger headache than the loss of VAT.

The parents are already paying for their children to be both state and privately educated, but are not taking up the state place. If they had to do that, the funding that your little darling gets would have to be spread further.

Private school parents, on the whole, are very large net contributers to public finances. This includes the fact that many mothers wouldn't work if they weren't paying fees, so that would be even less in the chancellor's coffers.

Get over your envy.

llareg - do you mind saying the name of that school?
I am really trying to get our head and governors to think more broadly and would love to be able to point to a school where it works and is working.

Although on the face of it it seems more charitable to give assistance to a family that could never have afforded it, from an actual child's perspective, if their parent falls on hard times it's very tough if they have to have their education disrupted, possibly moving schools at a critical point. I think some schools/charities give assistance to genuine cases to allow children to complete a stage of their education (eg: finish GCSEs, but not 6th form; or complete junior school but not senior etc.) and I think that is both a good idea and arguably 'charitable' too. Ideally of course, there should be both types of assistance and some measures in place to ensure that neither type is being fraudulently claimed.

Squeaky I am not about to turn this into a state v. private debate. Sorry to disappoint.

I wouldn't count on the bursary thing happening unless it is a well-endowed school or unless the DC is at a critical stage of education (midway through GCSE or A level).

If it were to happen then I'd agree it is unreasonable.

Yes, I feel the same. It would appear to me that this loss of bonus (esp by a BANKER, one of those who put us all in this mess in the first place -BUT another topic!) still pitches this family as wealthier than mine BUT by sheer dint of having been wealthy enough ONCE they may be able to keep their DCs in this 'great' school (and thus possibly swipe MY DCs Russell Group university place...) on MY tax money! That's what annoys.

This woman seems quite confident that the school will provide for them 'as part of their Charity Commission requirements' BUT to be honest, she WAS talking about music scholarships on the strength of grade 3 piano in a 10 year old..

Why is it YOUR tax money?

yeah, maybe if the w banker is still weathier than you its his tax money anyway