Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Education

Join the discussion on our Education forum.

Original poster

11plus - grrr!

153 replies

stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 08:41

Ok, I know I have to buy into it to ger dd into a good school, but really. She is v bright, SATS last academic year (4) showed above average etc. Then, she sat the Bond assessment papers yesterday and scored about 50%! So, it seems that the 11 plus is completely different to school work, and you just train them to pass it (hence dd's friends being tutored since Xmas/ studying weekly etc) How is this fair? If I was a single parent, skint, (as I was b4 meeting dh) there's no way I could afford the test papers etc, so dd would fail thro not understanding the questions. Any opinions?

OP posts:
posieflump · 30/08/2008 08:44

I always thought if the child had a natural ability to pass the 11plus fine, if not then if you coach them they will not be able to keep up at the grammar school and therefore will have a miserable time.
The best thing to do is to ask advice from your child's tracher and see whether they think your child is good enough to take the exam.

Gobbledigook · 30/08/2008 08:48

I guess I agree with you. My children are at a pretty academic school where results are way above national average and children are generally very bright - still many of them are tutored even if that's simply in terms of familiarisation with the papers - how they look, the types of questions you'll get and how you are expected to answer them.

In fact, this is the only reason I will probably go down the tutoring route - I won't be doing it if I feel that a grammar school isn't suitable for the child but if I think they are then I won't be able to disadvantage my child by not helping them along in terms of familiarising them with the papers.

Mind you, it's probably a moot point now as I think our 11+ is no longer and it's now entrance exams for each individual school. Even worse!

FluffyMummy123 · 30/08/2008 08:49

Message withdrawn

FluffyMummy123 · 30/08/2008 08:50

Message withdrawn

posieflump · 30/08/2008 08:52

really?
I think my post might be out of date tbh (from my childhood so very out-of-date )

god no way will we be able to afford a tutor, or do you mean tutor at home, like with exam papers
11+club at school sounds agood idea

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:04

posieflump, I used to think that but then I looked at the papers and had no idea what they were asking! So I failed...(glass of wine didn't help)

OP posts:
lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 09:09

Some children will miss out on grammar school places because their parents can't afford tutors or aren't able to tutor themselves. The papers are very different to stuff they do in school and our education authority will not allow the schools to teach 11+ stuff.
DS didn't got to a tutor,he is very very bright (objectively speaking, not boasting!) but he wouldn't have passed if he hadn't done practice papers at home - and even they are expensive. DD is going to a tutor for extra help because she is definitely bright enough for grammar school but the tests test different skills than her strengths. Even the verbal reasoning is fairly mathematical.

Gobble - this year, Trafford 11+ still being used for SGS - but SGS only and has been renamed to reflect that. AG always had own exam, the other 2 grammar schools now also gone to their own exams.

roisin · 30/08/2008 09:12

The first paper is the hardest, and they often don't score well, especially if doing it timed. Once they've done 2 or 3 they soon get loads better.

The 10-minute tests are great for doing a little at a time.

Another big difference is that 'bright kids' at state schools are expecting/expected to get full marks or virtually full marks in tests. In the 11+ you don't need to get such high marks iyswim.

Different areas/schools have different pass marks. If you have a very popular school they can afford to be very selective and your dc will need to score very highly (Cod! ). But it's not that extreme everywhere.

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:12

I totally agree lilo - we can't afford a tutor, and I spent £60 on 11 plus papers, but now I need to buy Bond levels 3 and 4...it's a whole industry!

OP posts:
Gobbledigook · 30/08/2008 09:16

Thought so lilo - of course in my day it was the 11+ for all of them!

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:16

we moved dd from a primary where all the kids did kumon from reception etc, but now she is in competition with them for grammar. The previous school is very pro hothousing (denies it!) and her current one isn't. I will be gutted if tutored friend gets in and dd doesn't as the whole thing leads to good grammar/rubbish secondary divisions.

OP posts:
Litchick · 30/08/2008 09:19

Cod's right of course, everyone will be doing it so you will only disadvantage yourself by not doing it.
I had just this argument with our head. He is firmly of the viwe that if you coach then the child will not keep up but how can that be the case if all the other schools are doing it?
I'm not suggesting you push and push kids to get into unsuitable schools but if the school is the right one for them then you need to provide them wiht the skills they need.

lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 09:22

pass mark here is round about 85% and is fixed, so if not enough children locally get that mark, they will allow people in from further afield. Unfortunately now they sit all 3 papers in one go (when DS did them, they were a few weeks apart) so it's testing stamina and concentration as well.

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:24

I think the only way they can pass is to be coached in answering a certain type of question (spec. verbal and non verbal reasoning). So, grammar schools will end up with a load of kids who can all be taught something, but a lot of cleverer children will miss out.

OP posts:
lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 09:28

I agree that some bright children will miss out because they haven't been tutored or their parents can't help them. But even with tutoring and practise, you won't pass if you aren't quite bright to start with because the questions are pretty tough and the pass mark very high.

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:32

That's true, lilo. What I resent is having to train dd up in addition to school stuff, and having to do it because everyone else does. It upsets me to think that if I hadn't met dh and was still a single parent, there is no way I could have paid £60 for the manual and 11plus papers. Now, I need to get levels 3 and 4 before she does the 11plus as she isn't up to the standard yet.

OP posts:
lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 09:35

what are the Bond papers please? Not done anything like that - should I be doing?
We use the NFER NELSON 11+ practice papers. Where do you live (roughly if you don't want to say precisely)

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:38

South East. Published by Nelson Thornes, the book I got (9.99) is called Bond : The Parents Stress -free Guide to the 11 plus. Inside is an assessment, and then you work out what level practice papers to get - i.e. if they do ok on English assessment levels 1 and 2 , buy levels 3 and 4 etc.

OP posts:
lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 09:41

ah OK, ours don't do English. Verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning, maths. Not my daughter's strong point, unfortunately.

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 09:43

My ds refuses to practice. He is red hot at non verbal reasoning but struggles with the verbal (dyslexic). If he practised he would stand a chance but he totally refuses - he doesn't want to go to the grammar. Very, very frustrating.

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 09:43

Ours do all of them. She did well on VR, but badly on the rest. So, will be buying levels for maths, english and non vr. Of course, when I explained the answers, she was like 'Oh yeah!'. So obv they need training up. Is yours this year or next?

OP posts:
Litchick · 30/08/2008 09:47

Cornsilk, what are you going to do?
I had family staying this week and one told me she wated her very bright daughter to sit for a burasry at an independent school but daughter will not countenance it.

undercovercat · 30/08/2008 09:47

My dd wont practice either. Nightmare.

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 09:52

litchick we're considering independent. I actually think it would be a better place for him as it's smaller etc but it'll be stressful budgeting for it.

Litchick · 30/08/2008 09:57

Cornsilk- what is it about the G school he doesn't fancy?
With my neice she won't agree to where her friends are not.