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Original poster

11plus - grrr!

153 replies

stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 08:41

Ok, I know I have to buy into it to ger dd into a good school, but really. She is v bright, SATS last academic year (4) showed above average etc. Then, she sat the Bond assessment papers yesterday and scored about 50%! So, it seems that the 11 plus is completely different to school work, and you just train them to pass it (hence dd's friends being tutored since Xmas/ studying weekly etc) How is this fair? If I was a single parent, skint, (as I was b4 meeting dh) there's no way I could afford the test papers etc, so dd would fail thro not understanding the questions. Any opinions?

OP posts:
Gobbledigook · 30/08/2008 09:59

lilo - is dd doing the 11+ this year or next? Good luck with it all! I keep thinking it's miles off but ds1 is going into yr 3 this year - juniors! Argh!

lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 10:12

this year, GDG - just a couple of weeks for AG and a month for SGS. Arrrrrrrrr.
Not very confident she will pass which is a shame cos zoned for a not very good high school.

Gobbledigook · 30/08/2008 10:16

Are you same as us? Down NR? Yikes!

Gobbledigook · 30/08/2008 10:17

PS have you worked out who I am yet?!

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 10:19

lilo what high school are you zoned for?

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 10:23

Litchick - he is very quirky and has it in his head he doesn't want to go to the grammar for 2 reasons. Firstly 'cos his teacher told them it was so very hard (thanks sir) and that has put him off, secondly 'cos he met a boy from the grammar school who was horrible to him apparently, not sure what happened but he's got it in his head that he won't like it anyway. He's not bothered about going with his friends which I am surprised about. His best friend is going to the local secondary according to his mum, which has an excellent reputation academically but is crap for SN so he's not going there.

lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 10:24

why gobble have you worked out who I am?
Cornsilk, don't want to spell it out as it might offend some parents whose children attend. If you know it, you'll get it from Gobble's post

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 10:26

No don't know it. My ds's go to RC school so slightly different, though I was considering putting ds in for AG as they do non verbal reasoning on the entrance exam and the RC grammar doesn't.

Gobbledigook · 30/08/2008 10:26

I think so.
Would never tell anyone who you are so don't worry - do as you would be done by and all that!

I could be wrong of course!

Cosette · 30/08/2008 10:26

The Chuckra website www.chuckra.co.uk/ has some free 11+ tests which are pretty good. My DDs used these alongside a couple of packs of the Nfer Nelson papers as preparation for independent school exams (no grammar schools here alas).

FluffyMummy123 · 30/08/2008 11:03

Message withdrawn

lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 11:08

looks like a useful site cosette, thanks.

GDG - to avoid a hijack of no interest to anyone else, come over here

AbbeyA · 30/08/2008 11:15

It all goes to show that grammar schools should be abolished.
The argument that it is an escape route for the working class is a real old chestnut; in reality pushy parents can get their child a place through intense training.
It should be a level playing field, a few practise papers for all, so that they know what to expect, and then the exam.
I know of lots of children who have been coached to the exam and manage OK until about the end of year 7 and then they begin to struggle.
I am really pleased that we moved away from a grammar school area and have very good comprehensives.

lilolilmanchester · 30/08/2008 11:22

I agree AbbeyA. That said, grammar schools work really well for bright kids. My DS will do a lot better at his grammar school than he would have done at a comp (that's to do with HIM, not having a pop at comps, went to one myself, but also know I would have done better at grammar). DS's grammar school also really good for sport, drama, music etc so it offers a really well rounded education. For DS, grammar is the best system. For DD, comprehensive would be better than an under-performing high school. So there's no one system suits all children IME.

LynetteScavo · 30/08/2008 11:39

I could rant and rant about the 11+

DS1 is bright, and should pass - he does brilliantly with the test papers - but what if he chooses not to during the exam? He'll have 5 years of easy peasy school work.

DS2 is highly likely not to be "grammar material" and will forever feel academically inferior to DS1.

DD will probably end up and the girls grammar school, which just isn't the kind of education I would like for her - and will make DS2 feel even worse.

I'm seriosly considering bussing them to Catholic comp in the next town to avoid the whole thing.

I'm already stressing and DS1 is just going into Y5

RustyBear · 30/08/2008 11:45

DS & DD both did exams for grammar school entry - different schools, one boys, one girls. DS did English, Maths & Verbal Reasoning papers & passed, DD did Verbal & non-verbal reasoning papers & didn't pass.
DS went to the grammar, DD went to a girls' comp - both got almost exactly the same GCSEs.

I don't know if this means that the exam DD did didn't spot her potential, or that there are better teachers at the comp, or even that DD didn't want to go to the grammar & didn't try very hard.

Neither of them was tutored, though they did some practice papers.
I did have some guilty feelings about not tutoring DD - wondering whether we should have done more to get in into that school. But she left the comp after GCSEs & went to a sixth form college & has just got 5 As - so has done better than a lot of her friends who did get into the grammar.

So I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

QueenMeabhOfConnaught · 30/08/2008 11:48

Interesting post, RustyBear.

Freckle · 30/08/2008 11:49

Tutoring can work in different ways. DS2 is bright but had little confidence in his ability (saw himself as being in DS1's shadow academically). We got him a tutor to build up his confidence and he aced the 11+. He's just finished Y7 at grammar and got excellent results in virtually all subjects. So tutored children don't necessarily then struggle at grammar. We would never have put him in for the exam if we hadn't thought he'd thrive there. He's had a difficult first year but that was not because of his academic ability.

Far from grammars being abolished, I personally think they should get out of this one-size-fits-all mentality and introduce more varied schools. DS1 was bullied at primary for being bright. There is no way in the world I would put him in a school of all abilities so that he could be bullied by less able pupils who don't want to work and don't want to see others succeed.

What they should abolish is the 11+ and use teachers' assessments and the child's existing work to grade them, so that there is no advantage in tutoring.

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 13:05

Rusty bear that's interesting. I went to grammar but my friends who I think were the same ability as me went to comp. We met up again at 6th form college and all had exactly the same number of GCSE's!

cornsilk · 30/08/2008 13:06

That should be GCE'S - AM VERY OLD!

Lilymaid · 30/08/2008 13:19

Many of the skills that you develop doing practice papers in verbal reasoning/non verbal reasoning/timed maths tests come in useful at a much later stage. DS1 has just graduated and found that many of the internships/jobs he might be interested in required you to take fairly similar tests as the first or second part of the recruitment process.

tallulah · 30/08/2008 15:10

Well mine weren't coached or tutored. We bought the Nelson practice papers from WH Smiths. What they need is practice of the format of the papers, that's all. You aren't "training them to pass" because if they didn't have the inate ability they wouldn't be able to do them even if you paid for the best tutor in the world.

It really makes me mad when people say they should get rid of grammar schools. If you don't like them send them elsewhere.

Personal example. DS3 at grammar school has just got 7 A-C GCSEs. Looking at the scores in the paper he is probably in the bottom 5-10% in his school. He could have achieved much more but he is lazy. My brother is of similar temperament. Because our school was no longer a grammar when he got there he was allowed to slide lower and lower into the bottom sets of the school. He left school with zero qualifications yet he has a tested IQ of 160 and is now in a very high paid job in IT. DS3 has been allowed to coast but not as far as my brother was.

DS3's friend at a comp got 10 A-Cs, but from my experience I believe DS3 would have got none at that school. Sadly my DCs need a kick up the rear to get them to work.

FluffyMummy123 · 30/08/2008 17:00

Message withdrawn

FluffyMummy123 · 30/08/2008 17:01

Message withdrawn

Original poster
stroppyknickers · 30/08/2008 17:54

I would so much rather have streamed comprehensives - better to be top in maths, middle in English, bottom in science and get a chance to shine somewhere surely? I don't think it leads to bullying for being bright - bullies pick on anything. Uh oh dh just got in - must go I am banned from mumsnet wittering as have to look after children

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