How important are GCSE results for Russell Group engineering or geography applications?

[Dangermouse100]

Could anyone advise me how important GCSEs are for uni applications?

We would be looking at engineering/mech eng/aerospace or geography/env science. Ideally russell group.

Grades are 3 x 8s/3 x 7s and 4 x 6s at high ranking grammar school.

Just starting year 12 so no predictions for A Level.

The maths is tough for engineering and they’ve got to really excel at it to thrive. Further Maths is excellent prep for an engineering degree. Ask at the Open Days - it’s the best way to research what’s best for your DS. At Southampton, we were told that the entry requirements of A*AA at A level was necessary because if they’re not capable of getting that, students tend to struggle. My DS got those grades for the MEng there, Civil engineering, and it’s a busy, demanding degree.

@greatestofallfine Engineering is not just maths. FM is not needed either. Plenty of decent unis don’t expect or require it. Competent at maths - yes. Dc should like maths but don’t need FM and neither do dc need to excel at it. DH made a very lucrative career out of engineering and is no maths genius. However he understands engineering concepts and many grads have low understanding of engineering solutions and why they might or indeed might not work. This is because the maths has taken over and engineering nous is seriously under developed.

‘Engineering’ is of course a huge field, with courses pitched at many levels. Some really do need FM, others don’t. At all levels the ones who thrive as engineers in their different fields will also have nous, of course!

It’s good for your DD to be thinking through the possibilities early, OP, but imo it’s possibly better to wait till she sees how she’s doing in her various subjects and has some predicted grades to guide realistic choices before getting too attached to a specific uni. Kids can fly when they’re relieved of GCSEs they don’t like, or flounder if they experience the ‘big step up’ phenomenon.

Meanwhile, have a look at this sort of thing, may be useful in helping your DD decide what she wants to do.
https://www.southampton.ac.uk/aerospace/outreach/aerospace/activities/headstart.page

@ErrolTheDragon I agree with this. My YP with their mix of 7 / 8 / 9s at GCSE has found A-levels much easier in some respects as they are really enjoying what they are studying and don’t have the distractions of subjects they really hated and weren’t as good at. For example, Spanish took up a huge amount of their time. English language was just painful.

They are predicted 4 A stars at A-level all in STEM subjects.

A girl in the same year who got all 9s at GCSE has floundered and has dropped further maths. Isn’t doing that great with normal maths and physics either. She is finding it hard to apply the knowledge. GCSEs are generally more reliant on knowing content. It’s a different way of learning.

This is where the school reference comes into play - showing that progression from GCSE is actually the key.

Yes - some people are ‘all rounders’, others are more asymmetrically talented. Thats one reason many uni courses really don’t focus on high GCSEs across the board - there may be specific grades required for English for obvious reasons, or maths if they’re not doing A levels for a science, or MFL if the student is interested in doing a subsidiary language. But they don’t nowadays bar the dyslexic STEM genius as some were wont to do in the dark ages of my era!

@ErrolTheDragon A few elite unis went and need FM. Msny others do not. You have a skewed view as your DD went to Cambridge but this is not the norm and it’s wrong to suggest engjneers need FM is any discipline. They absolutely do not. Some courses want it but that’s not the same thing at all. Many of DHs excellent engineers went to ex polys and did not have FM. However they understand engineering and that really matters.

OP - my advice for your DD would be to go to some open days as soon as possible, mostly to try to understand more about the various options in engineering and what the geography-related courses have to offer. Deciding on those paths is going to be key.

I think, though that for most universities, it will be the a level predictions that are the deciding factor - most don’t use gcse results as an indicator, and the ones that do seem to mostly be the very top ones that are using them as an additional discriminator. Aside from the min maths / English requirements anyway.

It’s also worth knowing that in general, engineering entry requirements are higher across the board than eg geography. If you look at mech eng entry reqs for the top 10-20 unis for engineering, they are mostly wanting all A, with a good number including an Astar too, and just a very few including a B in the offer. The top 10-20 ranked for Geography have a much broader spread of A, Astar and B’s.
There are loads of excellent engineering courses that ask for more B’s too - but just wanted to alert you that it has particularly high entry requirements as it surprised us when we were looking 2 years ago.

I think they do do Geology though 😆

Sorry I'm talking about St Andrews.. they might not do engineering but I have met Geologists who studied at St Andrews!

hahah yes re St Andrews, indeed I was looking at courses overall mentioned by @Dangermouse100 and geography is offered there - but not engineering indeed, so it would be a poor choice for that. Apologies for the confusion, should reread before posting.

I agree with @TallagallaPenguin that the offers for geog will be a lot lower than engineering. Many if not most of the top unis (Sheffield, Brum, Loughborough and more) want AstarAA or AAA for their MEng courses at least (some have lower asks for BEng). But yes, for geography you can find typical offers of ABB easily enough.

I worked at a university. They didn't check GCSEs, just predicted grades. They just didn't really have the resources (staff) to go through every application in that level of detail.
They might in borderline cases if the course wasn't already oversubscribed, or if they were unsure about a nonstandard application or mature student without A levels.

No skewed view - as I said, some do, some don’t. I meant to edit that to ‘many’ or ‘most’ don’t, but didn’t do it in time. Mea culpa. It’s just as well to be aware up front that a few really do need FM either to get a place or else to hit the ground running and thrive, and focus attention on all the other great choices. Or in some cases a student might find they’ve got the ability and motivation to add AS FM which some courses (again, a few) specifically mention.

I studied Geography at a non Russell group university. Definitely consider a wider range of universities.

@MeetMeOnTheCornerHave you attended any Open Days for engineering courses at a Russell Group university recently?
If not, how do you know what they advise on FM? I can tell you, because I have. FM is recommended, but not essential. Because the maths at these unis is tough on their engineering courses (my DS is now in his 3rd year).
The OP was asking about Russell Group unis, not former Polys.

@greatestofallfine RG is never going to get all dc with FM at high grades. It’s pie in the sky. Plus there are BEng courses dc can start on and move to MEng. Never discount former polys. They have long been educating useful engineers and not mathematicians who just want to sit in a corner and code. RG at the lower levels really isn’t the only kid on the block. No dc should be put off Engineering because they are not doing FM. Vast numbers of engineers don’t have it. DH employed lots without it.

So for civils; Cardiff ABB with a B in maths so probably not expecting FM. Newcastle - exactly the same. Liverpool AAB and no mention of FM. Surrey (not RG but good) ABB. No FM mentioned. Lots of these courses are not very competitive and it’s ridiculous to just look at top end RG for all 5 choices if dc is unsure about FM.

So sorry for late reply. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, lots to mull over.

We visited Loughborough on Saturday and really liked it. The engineering dept (particularly aeronautical) seemed cutting edge in terms of what they cover. Lots on drones, sustainability etc

It doesn't matter too much if you have good predicted grade (for RG).