Options after being denied place at nearest secular primary school - home ed or attend faith school against our wishes?

[Outdoorsmammy]

not sure if anyone can help as it’s quite niche but looking for any advice. We live in a fairly low population area and generally everyone here gets their first choice of primary school regardless of catchment area (I’ve never met someone who hasn’t). We put the school my son already attends preschool at as our first choice but unfortunately he just missed out on the last spot to our neighbour. The school were as shocked as we were and advised us to appeal which we have but I don’t have high hopes. This school is the second closest school to us but also the nearest secular school. Pretty much every other school near us is a faith school (including the one he’s been offered a place at) but we feel very strongly about him having a secular education. We did have faith schools as our other choices but only because it was so unlikely that we would be faced with this issue that I definitely downplayed it. I feel very stupid about that now and wish I’d just listed every non-faith school within a 20mile radius. I have contacted a couple other schools that are further away than we would have liked just to see but they are full for September.
I know children can be removed from collective worship in school which was originally my backup plan but the school he’s been offered a place at seems to involve religion in everything which makes me very uncomfortable.
If the appeal is unsuccessful then I feel like my only option is to defer his start date and hope a place comes up at some point. I don’t mind the idea of home ed except that I’m also expecting another baby in late Sept/early Oct AND also have a 2 year old who’s only in part-time childcare so it would be a lot.
I believe children can legally stay at preschool until the term after they’re 5 but I’m worried this wouldn’t be fair on him as he’ll see all his friends move up to reception.
looking for stories of people managing to get places at secular schools when originally denied, or being forced to attend faith schools against their wishes and finding it ok, or ideas for doing home ed with other small children in tow.

thanks :D

I don’t think the risk is of your child becoming religious. The harm is having to tell your very young child that teachers they are supposed to trust as accurate reporters of information are wrong.

If a teacher does not present information as christians believe or Muslims believe and instead presents something as fact, that needs to be countered. If a teacher unduly pressures a student to participate in religious rituals like prayer, this must be addressed, not just with the school, but with the child who experiences it or who witnesses it. (Don’t say this doesn’t happen, I have seen it happen).

The problem is the breakdown of trust between teacher and student. This can happen at any school, but it is more likely to happen at a school where teachers believe they have a religious mandate.

Yes I absolutely agree and this has been one of my main concerns here - how to explain to him that we don’t believe the same things as the school while not outright telling him the school is ‘wrong’. Also asking him to be removed from collective worship is all well and good but I also don’t know how to explain to him why he is being separated from his classmates for something

They will learn about other religions and ‘points of view’ regardless of which school they go to which is not the issue. I would argue that being taught one particular faith as fact from the age of 4 is indoctrination rather than ‘making one’s own mind up’. My children are welcome to take up absolutely any faith they like provided they are old enough to understand critical thinking and learn about said faiths in a neutral environment

Just say "there are lots of different religions and people who believe different things. Some people don't believe in any god and some people aren't sure. Personally I don't believe in any god but I respect people who do. And I do support the teachings that many religions share around being kind to others " etc etc.

As mine got older I talked about how, used thoughtfully, many religions create a set of very decent rules to live by. And also how, used badly, religions are used to control and exploit people and justify war.

I never needed to criticise Christianity because that would be wildly black and white thinking.

They are both currently very determined atheists without me ever telling them what to think or believe. Of course their views may change again later and they may choose a religion and I would respect that too.

Thank you, that is a good way of phrasing it. Although he’s literally never even heard of god before so even just initially explaining that concept will be hard! I have no issue with him being religious if that’s what he chooses later but I do have an issue with him being taught one particular religion as if it’s fact

I would say your lived experience is very useful!

I was the opposite, brought up by a religious mum, it hasn't damaged me in anyway whatsoever, and like you made me ask questions and see different points of view!

For what it’s worth I wouldn’t take my kids out of assembly if nobody else is doing that (nobody goes out in our school). I think it will make him feel awkward and kids will ask him why and he won’t know what to say. I’ve been in a position as a kid of other kids asking me to justify my parents choices that I didn’t quite understand. They did give me lines to say but it didn’t help much as kids ask more questions and having a line isn’t the same as justifying a decision you made yourself and fully understand. It felt shaky.

Also assembly has loads of positive aspects (class presentations, certificates, birthday pencils) and it would be isolating to miss it.

our head teacher just says “pray with me if you choose, and if you choose not to pray please sit quietly”. I think that’s fine. Less keen on them actually going to the church at Easter and Christmas but they are usually performing something they have practiced in class (recorded concerts etc) so can’t really pull them out

I’m interested to know why you would write such an unhelpful post, @Okiedokie123 .
Are you okay?

I wrote about struggling to leave the house some days with three children under 5 because that was my lived experience, and also that of many of my friends. I’m 53 now and there are fewer large families about, but as a result they’re often less supported, not more.

As for the crucial period of socialisation being 4-7, it’s a well-accepted tenet of child development, and tested in fields as diverse as neuroscience and anthropology. If it’s your field professionally I’m sure you would have been able to quote your sources, but instead you decided to challenge a stranger on the internet with FA except a shutdown.

We’ve been at three primary schools - 2 c of e and one regular. The non-church one was by far the most religious as the head was born again Baptist. So if the religion issue is your most important issue, be aware that it can all change in the blink of an eye.

From a waiting list this can work to your disadvantage as military children are given priority so they are not disadvantaged by frequent moves.
Yes most moves are planned, but occasionally they are changed at short notice. My friend got 24 hours notice that their posting as no longer going to be Wales they were in fact going to London.

we now feel we’ve confused him by having to move him away from the school and friends he loves and start over (we’re also military so this may happen again a couple times during his school career)

Truly don't worry about confusing him with this move. It's very normal for kids to move from pre-school to a new cohort at a different school. Sure he'll take it in his stride and enjoy his new place and love his new friends too. They're very adaptable and it's no bad thing getting used to it especially as you're military and will be moving more over the years. Coping with change is a big part of life.

We are also military - and not wanting to move him from a school where he is already happy and settled when this will happen again sooner or later also formed a big part of our appeal.
we will see 🤞🏻

I don’t think this is true. I agree that some non-church schools could still be quite religious if the headteacher is, but there are plenty of state schools that don’t do any religious observance.

I’ve taught in multiple non-church primaries in various places and not a single one of them has done prayer. The closest they got was some quiet thinking time at the end of assembly. One said something along the lines of ‘if you’re someone who prays, you can pray silently if you’d like to. Otherwise, have a quiet think about what we’ve talked about today or something you’ve enjoyed this week.’

Schools are supposed to provide daily collective worship that is ‘broadly Christian in nature’ (unless the school has been given an exemption). In my experience, the way a lot of schools do this is to talk about a value that would count as a Christian value, but that would also be a value shared by other religions and people of no religion, followed by a quiet minute at the end for children to reflect in whatever way suits them. So, for example, they might read a non-religious story where one of the characters helps someone in need, talk about the story, and then discuss how we can help each other in a school community.

Thanks - that’s exactly my concern with removing him from collective worship. I don’t want him to feel odd or left out in anyway. My concern though is that with a catholic school it is less likely to be as neutral as ‘pray if you wish’

In most Catholic schools making the sign of the cross is done frequently. Often at the beginning and end of school and with Grace before meals.
And of course in assembly.
You may want to explain to him that he doesnt have to do that.

A friend moved to the Peak District and the local Infant School was C of E, the local Junior School they moved up to was Methodist, so changed religion 😀 Parents both Catholic, but I think they found it OK.
I think parent beliefs have a much bigger impact than school. I'd be concerned my child would feel left out when the others were preparing for Holy Communion though. You'd probably have got a place at a non faith school by then though.

Im interested to know why you would reply to me in such an arrogant way@LondonStock you seem very angry indeed. Im concerned you are not ok.

It sounds like you had a tough time when your kids were little (apologies but from your post it wasnt immediately clear to me that you were speaking of your own experience) I hope things are easier now.
I agree with what you've said re the ages 4-7 being a very important aspect of child development so thats why when I home educated my own children (from aged 5 through to 17) I made sure that we went out as much as possible to spend time with other families and their children. Its a fallacy that home educated children are cooped up and 'unsocialised'. Im not sure why you felt the need to witter on about quoting sources etc. I didnt feel the need to, just like you didnt.

My eldest did many GCSEs whilst home educated and then went to 6th form, then uni. Ultimately decided that wasnt for him. He is now living and working independently and travelling the world. Younger one is an currently at uni pursuing a very exciting career. Both thriving and happy. Both benefited enormously from their experience of being home educated for 10+ years. Neither have experienced negative consequences.
Home education works for some and not others, just like school is best for some and not others.

Sorry no idea on the schools front but my DD is going to be HE. She would have been starting school in Sept. She is staying at her pre school with her funding hours until the term after she is 5 which is Easter. She is fine with this despite her best friend starting school in Sept. However a few differences for us: she has always known she would be HE so we haven’t been talking about school, she has HE friends also not going to school but not at her pre school, her pre school have known all year so have moved her to a circle time group with younger children to miss all the school readiness stuff and encouraged her friendships with the children who will be staying in Sept.
However on the subject of managing with a toddler and newborn: you do not legally have to be doing any education at home until he is compulsory school age (the term after he is 5) so you could just continue with pre school as he is now. Obviously whether or not your happy to do that is another question, if he then joins year 1 in Sept 27 he would obviously be at a disadvantage if he didn’t start doing any learning of phonics till for instance Easter. However it may be that a school place comes up soon after the start of term anyway.
When is he 5?

@LondonStock Ooops my bad I realise I said that this bit "The ages between 4-7 are absolutely crucial for social development" wasnt true - when it clearly is.

The point Im making is that it is not essential to achieve that by children attending school. Totally possible to do so by home educating instead. Social development can happen very effectively in may ways. Arguably school isnt the ideal way to achieve that - its one way but not necessarily the best.

Thank you - this is really useful. I knew he could technically stay at preschool until the term after he is 5 but wasn’t sure about funding. I’m torn as he loves his preschool but obviously we and he thought he’d be moving up to reception with his friends so not sure it would be fair to have him continue going but seeing them all in the other playground.
My two year old goes to a childminder a couple days a week so I might see if she has space instead and juggle it so I don’t have all 3 kids at once every day. He is 5 at the end of Jan so not loads of time but I guess we’d remain hopeful that a place would come up in that time. It’s really only the new baby that’s complicating things as I’ve always been open to the idea of home ed, but want to be able to do all my kids justice here with my time and attention.
good luck with your home ed journey and thanks again for the insight

Not true. I have worked as a teacher in quite a few schools that have never done daily prayer thankfully. They know they’re supposed due to ludicrous antiquated laws but they quietly ignore it and no one complains 💪🏻

5 at the end of Jan makes him CSA April 1st I believe so you actually have 2 whole terms. They are entitled to the funding until 5- some pre schools won’t keep them and I would imagine a school attached one wouldn’t (sorry I missed that bit out of your original post) but you don’t know if you don’t ask. Again I imagine childminders some will and some won’t. No rule to say either pre schools or childminders have to keep them until CSA but if you find one that will (my area was very 50:50 for pre schools) then they absolutely are entitled to the funding but you may have to tell the pre schools that as they may never have had a child stay. Quite common now with summer born children deffering but obviously much less common with winter born ones who don’t have that option.
Hope that helps

I don't have much advice but wanted to say that I would feel the same as you. It's not because I would worry about them being indoctrinated, but rather because I wouldn't want my child's education as a whole to be infused with something that I felt was untrue and went against my own beliefs. It's different to being introduced to different religions and ideas, which I wholeheartedly support. This is one specific set of beliefs presented as fact.

That being said, if it appeared to be the best education for my child overall, I would keep him there.

you’ve said that you’re looking for people how have been in your position but I don’t think many people will have been in this position tbh.

if you are so strongly against faith schools, you shouldn’t have put it as your 2nd choice……

many people are given their 2nd choice. I’ve they felt so strongly about their Dc attending a secular school they’d have made sure all their options were secular

If you weren’t doing daily collective worship, what did you do to nurture the children’s spiritual development then? (Still a part of the Ofsted framework). Or did your schools just bullshit their way through that bit?