Options after being denied place at nearest secular primary school - home ed or attend faith school against our wishes?

[Outdoorsmammy]

not sure if anyone can help as it’s quite niche but looking for any advice. We live in a fairly low population area and generally everyone here gets their first choice of primary school regardless of catchment area (I’ve never met someone who hasn’t). We put the school my son already attends preschool at as our first choice but unfortunately he just missed out on the last spot to our neighbour. The school were as shocked as we were and advised us to appeal which we have but I don’t have high hopes. This school is the second closest school to us but also the nearest secular school. Pretty much every other school near us is a faith school (including the one he’s been offered a place at) but we feel very strongly about him having a secular education. We did have faith schools as our other choices but only because it was so unlikely that we would be faced with this issue that I definitely downplayed it. I feel very stupid about that now and wish I’d just listed every non-faith school within a 20mile radius. I have contacted a couple other schools that are further away than we would have liked just to see but they are full for September.
I know children can be removed from collective worship in school which was originally my backup plan but the school he’s been offered a place at seems to involve religion in everything which makes me very uncomfortable.
If the appeal is unsuccessful then I feel like my only option is to defer his start date and hope a place comes up at some point. I don’t mind the idea of home ed except that I’m also expecting another baby in late Sept/early Oct AND also have a 2 year old who’s only in part-time childcare so it would be a lot.
I believe children can legally stay at preschool until the term after they’re 5 but I’m worried this wouldn’t be fair on him as he’ll see all his friends move up to reception.
looking for stories of people managing to get places at secular schools when originally denied, or being forced to attend faith schools against their wishes and finding it ok, or ideas for doing home ed with other small children in tow.

thanks :D

I would start him at the school where you have a place but keep him on the waiting list for the other school. A place will probably come up during the school year and you can move him then providing it’s something you still feel strongly about.

It’s pretty much impossible to win an infant class appeal. But if your neighbour got a place at your first choice you should hopefully be near the top of the waiting list, and fingers crossed there will be movement over the summer.

But if not I’d make your piece with the school you were allocated. Your mum has a good point- you obviously weren’t indoctrinated! Also, between the RE curriculum and traditional things like nativity plays I don’t think you ever get a truly secular school in the UK. You can’t home school with a newborn and a toddler at home, you’d be doing him a disservice to try as would keeping him at nursery if you feel he is ready for school. I also think you’d be mad to do a long journey to a miles away school with tiny kids in the hope of not having a few hymns sung in assembly. My kids are at a CofE school with weekly church but it doesn’t affect the rest of their lessons and their classes are diverse with a whole mix of religions and backgrounds. They also learn about other faiths in RE.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about RE teaching. Yes, all schools including secular ones have to teach RE but it is about learning about a variety of religions and beliefs, not indoctrinating children into one in particular. In secular schools it's very much "Christians/Jews/Sikhs/ Muslims believe that…"

All state-funded schools are expected to hold some form of daily collective worship, "broadly Christian in nature" if they are not a faith school, but in my experience the interpretation of this requirement varies enormously. Parents can withdraw their children from any RE lessons and acts of collective worship (though the latter are very often about the school's moral values rather than religion).

I think your child should go to the school for which a place has been offered and then if a place at your preferred school comes up, take it.

I agree with those who have suggested that faith schools are not as strict as perhaps the OP thinks.

This. You could defer and hope, or you could take the place offered and move when a preferred school is offered from wl. Chances of an Infant Class Size appeal succeeding are small. Bear in mind you may meet same issues with dc2/3 unless siblings are prioritised over distance.

CofE schools have been faith schools in name only for my sons. None of them can tell you reliably about Christian teachings or have anything other than a vague idea about what happens in churches; they don't know any prayers or hymns and my youngest was insistent recently that I was utterly wrong to say that when Reverend George was talking about prophecy in assembly he was not in fact talking about predicting the world cup winners.

I’m Catholic and from my perspective, faith schools don’t really make a difference to what children believe. In fact, considering that 95% of children leave faith schools without any religious belief, I think you can be reassured that your child will not be brainwashed.

I understand though that it’s not what you would prefer for your child. I hope you find a way through.

Officially all schools in England are supposed to have a daily act of collective worship which is broadly Christian in character.

specific schools for other religions are exempted but obviously have their own practices.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/collective-worship-in-schools

in primary schools this is usually an assembly once or twice a week.

ofsted used to care about this but in more recent times are not bothered so it’s lapsing somewhat.

a lot of particularly primary schools were catholic or c of e schools before state education began and as part of developing the system the respective churches still own the land and buildings and often have a strong input into running the schools.

there are not any really secular schools in England.

Thank you - it was another of our issues that my husband could do the school run to the secular school as it’s on the way to his work but the one we’ve been allocated is in the other direction so I would be responsible. So yes, def easier if I don’t need to wrangle three small children out the house every morning!

Thank you. The school is currently significantly under capacity so we’re hoping that works in our favour but you’re right, wins are rare which is why I’m now scrambling for a backup.
I am so disappointed and upset about it at the moment as everyone felt it was all but guaranteed he would get a place, but you are right that it may be I can come to terms with it and it won’t be so bad in the end.

My kids went to what you’re calling secular- we still had a few teachers imparting their religious beliefs- complaints were made and there was a lot of I didn’t realise and I didn’t mean anything by it. Despite this my kids are fully committed atheists.

There is so much movement in reception that if you stay on the waiting list for the preferred school, there’s a good chance you can move before the end of reception.

My kids are at a CoE school (we are also CoE). In reception the kids don’t go to assembly or collective worship until way past Easter.

When prayers are said in the day the option are to join in or sit quietly and respectfully.

Really, how terrible is it that he learns about a faith (and likely others too) and learns the true meaning of Christmas or Easter (though I assume you don’t celebrate them)

Thank you - yes the vast majority of schools here are faith schools which seems ridiculous these days. The catholic school he’s been offered a place at was on our list - it’s a nice school and I allowed myself to be persuaded that I was overthinking the faith thing. It was so incredibly unlikely that he’d end up going there (it’s further away from us than the secular first choice) that it didn’t seem as pressing an issue then as it does now that it’s reality. I obviously do feel really annoyed at myself for this now and accept this is partly my fault. Unfortunately we do have other issues as well though - the location of the offered school is not convenient anymore (I wasn’t pregnant when we made the application). My husband would have done the school run for first choice but can’t for offered school as wrong direction so it would fall to me, with toddler and newborn in tow. All this is in our appeal but as others have stayed, it’s extremely rare to win an infant class appeal.

I’m in Ireland so the school situation is different, but we really wanted my daughter to speak fluent Irish, so picked the Irish speaking Catholic school rather than the secular one speaking English. She similarly started at 4, and we had lots of age appropriate conversations along the way. She is happily atheist and fluent in Irish, so it worked for us and a lot of it washes over their heads at 4 or 5.

If I was you I’d go with the school you got and switch when a place comes up. I totally get your disappointment and worry, trying to make the right decisions for your children and it not going to plan is hard.

It's true that some (most?) English state schools have very minimal or no religious content/activity in practice but the point is none of them are "secular" as we have no separation of church and state. All it takes is a new Head...

Interesting. My son didn’t get into the nearest four state schools, and the faith based one practically laughed at us! We went private in the end. Their second private school was C of E but you’d barely know that. Yes they sung hymns at assembly and every other week trudged across the street to church for service but it didn’t seem to affect my kids at all. And I do admit the Christmas Carol service was lovely.
I grew up in the US and there’s a definite separation of church and state and I am against any state schools having any religious affiliation. But we live here and most schools seem to have some (all the three primaries within walking distance of our current house are C of E). I can’t say it has meant anything nor influenced my children at all. In fact my DD is at St John’s College at Durham Uni which has a reputation as being religious (Cranmer Hall, a theological training college, is housed there) but my atheist DD chose it.

If the school is under capacity then I'm surprised the reception class(es) are full. It's normally the other way round and KS2 is full(er) but numbers are falling in KS1.

I would buy generic uniform if you do decide to go with the other school initially as then he can wear it when a place becomes available at the school you want.

You know it’s perfectly possible to take one child to school while you have younger siblings? Like that isn’t a reason not to attend a school on your husbands way to work 🤦‍♀️

If its a military area...
Sometimes the peoole moving "out" are told to apply for a local place just in case the move is delayed. Meanwhile the people moving into the area also apply (sometimes without an address, the base address is used if no housing allocated). Then over the summer its straightened out.

In our case... we applied Jan, heard in May of the move in October... then in July it was changed to August, at which point we withdrew the school application.

Random aside, but is your username from ‘He who would valiant be’?

Do not, under any circumstances, homeschool. The ages between 4-7 are absolutely crucial for social development and it’s really not healthy to isolate children. That won’t be your intention of course, but with 3 under 5 you’ll be lucky to make it out of the house some days, especially in bad weather, never mind home educate your eldest.

So now you need to make sure your chosen school knows exactly who you and your child are. School waiting lists are fluid - people move house, sadly marriages fail, sometimes kids drop out for SEN reasons. Keep phoning and maintain a sense of connection with the school (volunteering, PTA, school fete etc) if your child is already a nursery pupil there. There isn’t independent scrutiny on the waiting lists so there are opportunities to leapfrog by just being front of mind if a spot becomes available.

Send your kid to the inconvenient faith school until a spot comes up. They are learning more from the other kids than they are from the priest or the school teachers and culture for the first couple of years, so you won’t suddenly find yourself with a zealot.

In my part of the world, we too had no choice. Every primary school is either C of E or Catholic. We sent the DDs to a C of E one but explained in an age-appropriate manner about our beliefs as a family. Both are in their 20s and atheist (but have done lots of church/chapel choir singing in spite of it). It never really caused any issues for kids or school. Catholic schools often have a good reputation for behaviour management and inclusion.

A PP has mentioned the influence the church has and I agree with them. I am a teacher and have worked in a couple of C of E schools. The clergy people themselves have, with one exception, been utterly lovely. The zealots in their diocesan education departments the complete opposite. One was horrified that I didn’t know a new testament bible verse. I quipped back with a quote from a proverb which of course she didn’t know either. The vicar thought it was hilarious and bought me a drink in the pub later.

Like others, we relocated to East Sussex. Every primary was Church of England.
However, the one that DD went to was fine. Singing assembly once a week. The local Dean came in twice a term, and they walked to the church once a term
Wasn't hugely different to my eldest 2 who went bog standard primary. All my kids have grown up as atheists!

I would not want this, but overall it won’t be a big difference. I have noticed catholic schools have an emphasis on being thankful and caring for others, which is positive. Prayers in the morning, before lunch, before hometime and RE lessons focussed on Catholicism.
I have been to a catholic school where reception children were expected to sit through Mass in the school hall for much longer than I would be happy to have young children sitting for. This was pre Covid so I hope things have changed a bit now.
Most lessons and school life will be the same as secular school.
I would check about the assemblies / mass and expectations on the youngest children.

Are the children in the school British military? In our area, we had US military families living off base who applied for reception year at our primary school to give their children the experience of a British school, as the base American schools start a year later. That meant that that a a few local children didn’t get places as they lived further away, although still in catchment, then got offered year 1 places when the US children left at the end of reception.