Would your primary school treat these threats and assaults as violence?

[Lambaandlettuce]

in your primary school is this deemed violence?

we have a just turned 10 year old child in my child’s class whose behaviour is digusting.

We have taken our eldest child out of school this week for their own safety after this pupil threatened to kill them simply because they didn’t want to play tag. We were told by a member of staff this morning the pupil was in school today despite what happened on Thursday. Staff member also said to me I should start considering formal complaints as the head will never consider excluding this child regardless of the number and escalation of incidents. Head has said today that the behaviour is communication and is being managed in line with their policy.

putting arms around neck to strangle other child
punching
saying I hate you and I’ll get you dead
ripping up school art work
bullying every day saying you are weak, you are a pussy, your are just scared of me, I’ll knock yer face off
yanking off play equipment from height and causing huge egg lump bruise on head
using threatening language in school

to staff and in class
hitting TA and pushing her resulting in injury and weeks off work
so disruptive children can’t renewer classroom and have to be taught outside
putting hands around throat of class teacher
climbing on top of windows tables and throwing scissors

It's not all schools in England! Our one was lovely, yes the odd fall out between friends but I'm sure that is to be expected in all schools as kids learn how to manage relationships - even in Scandinavian schools.

What OP describes is a really unusual and extreme behaviour and not safe for teachers or other kids. The head needs to take decisive action as clearly mainstream school isn't the right environment for this child.

Age of culpability is 10 so police can deal with it. However, they will discuss with school and see what was recorded, how it was dealt with etc. They may not pursue it beyond that. However, it doesn't mean you shouldn't speak to the poluce as it's still assault.
I would make a formal complaint to the governors. The main thing you need to complain aboit if that your child isn't being kept safe and you want to know what they are going to do about it.
You can only deal with things which relate directly to your child. However, if they've witnessed things this also counts ie they witnessed the teacher being attacked, the y witnessed other children being hurt.
Be as factual as you can including timelines.
I also wouldn't wait until Friday. That's unacceptable. I work in a school and we'd prioritise this over other things as it's a safeguarding issue.
You can't demand the child is excluded but you can ask that your child is kept safe.
Hope you can resolve this quickly.

My dd has two kids like this in her y6 class. Sparks flew and chaos ensued.

The “therapeutic behaviour policy” meant rewards more than sanctions. Lots of classroom evacuations. Lots of chat about recognising your anger, yadder yadder. The school had a small area of trees and found staffing to run a permanent forest school where the worst kids spent a few afternoons each week. It gave the other kids a breather, but dd felt it was unfair. My dd (well-behaved) only did one half-term of forest school for an hour a week.

My dd was stuck on a table with one of the kids that was very disruptive all of her year6. I asked the teacher to make sure she wasn’t getting too stressed out by him but by this stage dd had it in hand. She’d been with this kid for years so she knew him, she had learned to manage him as well as any of the teachers. I had enrolled her in martial arts age 8 so she had some self-defence skills, and she encouraged rumours about her ninja skills. She made it patently clear if he even dared to touch her, he’d seriously regret it. Age 10 she told me her “killer stare” kept him off her back. She helped him with his school work a lot. In the end, she rather liked him, and he told everyone he was terrified of her. He called her “my scary friend”.

But not so the other boys. Broken arm on one occasion. Fighting in the loos during lesson time. Fighting on the playground. Verbal abuse, threats and sexualised language and gestures directed at teachers and pupils alike. Disruption like angry outbursts (ripped a door off a cupboard, throwing the water bottles all over the place like missiles).

My dd says she remembers hearing her y6 teacher having rows with HT in the corridor saying things like “I have no way to deal with it. What am I meant to do?”

One thing that did seem to work was the worse-behaved of the two boys was sent to sit in the HT office most of the day and given lunch and break separately rather than in class instead of being fully suspended or excluded. You could ask for that to happen, to keep the kids safe?

HT refused to exclude. I was surprised, after the broken arm incident. I think HT really believed ALL kids deserve some education and frankly if that’s at the cost of some kids getting the best outcomes then fine, sacrifice worth making. So aim for everyone to pass SATs averagely but don’t worry about passing well, it’s unnecessary. That means if the class is severely disrupted it can probably be absorbed. I get that - possibly even agree - but it’s different when it’s your own child’s education and Mh being affected.

The class teacher left the school at end of DD’s y6, I don’t blame her. The kids know they have all the power.

The crazy thing is the school got Outstanding at ofsted. The HT found budget to give all the kids haribos as a bribe to be good, and everyone got promised “Friday fun day” with no lessons as a follow-up bribe after the visit. Told when the ofsted inspector comes round, if teacher asks a question everyone raises a hand - open-hand if you are sure know the answer, or closed in a fist if you don’t. And so on - a million ways to try and trick the outcome.

Or perhaps other schools are worse and really this is as good as it gets? Horrible thought.

Secondary school was having none of it though - the worst of the boys was in a special educational setting by the end of Y7 as unable to be managed in mainstream. Best thing for him, he needed help and boundaries not the lawless, woke nonsense at his primary school.

At age 10 they are at the age of criminal responsibility so yes the police can get involved.

your daughter is an absolute boss 👊👊! Sounds very intelligent and well as lots of grit! Also thank you for such a considered response. Your primary sounds very much like ours. Sadly our head for all the bluster and absolute guff about policy won’t exclude. Just won’t. Our child begged to go to school today, we heard another child was attached today because ours wasn’t there to be a punch bag. We are hoping other parents are complaining like us , I’m going to have to start asking around

we were wondering if anyone has any experience of this calling police at primary?

Thanks so much for responding we have drafted a letter to the governors today in the hope they can do something

Yes my old work friends school a good hour away from us is flourishing she said because a new head started who removed the previous behaviour policy which was all about restoring practices and weak consequences with one with clear boundaries and no tolerance for physical assaulting staff or other pupils. Who knew a common sense approach was… common sense!

OP it is time you take this to the police.

Threats to kill and physical assaults can be reported to police, even for a child (they may handle it differently due to age, but it still matters).
This is also a serious safeguarding issue. You can escalate to:
the school governors
your local council’s safeguarding team
Ofsted (especially if the school is failing to keep children safe)
If your child is directly threatened again, calling 101 (non-emergency police) is reasonable. If there’s immediate danger, it’s 999.

We honestly didn’t know it could be taken to the police until someone here mentioned it. I agree we are planning to now. 💯

If you are not happy after the meeting on Friday, I would ring LADO and report your Safeguarding concerns. I have known schools where failure to manage poor behaviour effectively, lead to the H/T being removed.

If you are not happy after the meeting on Friday, I would ring LADO and report your Safeguarding concerns. I have known schools where failure to manage poor behaviour effectively, lead to the H/T being removed.

My son had issues in primary school with one lad, most of the class did. It took all of the parents of the affected kids to complain to the head teacher for things to change. Once there were enough complaints to justify changes, the boy was given one to one support. His behaviour dramatically changed, he made friends and was engaged at school (from what I heard, and saw myself at events the parents could attend). The change in him was so good that everyone he invited would go to his birthday parties by the end of primary school.
I rememeber at the time my teacher friends saying nothing will be done unless enough parents complain. The school has to be inclusive, but they just don't have the resources to provide additional support to children who need it, and this won't be funded without overwhelming supporting evidence of the need for it.

Aaaah!
inclusion is great isn’t it?

@Lambaandlettuce The head won’t discuss the other child with you but must ensure your child is safe and receives an education.

From what you say, I’m amazed there’s not been a parental uprising and a dc exodus and also a teacher exodus.

Regarding exclusions, heads do not have to provide a social service. Can you imagine the head of the Michaela school putting up with this? Heads also have a duty to their staff. The head must try various strategies to try and get improvement from the child but when these fail, they can exclude.

What did your class teacher say? Resigned to not being backed up by the head? Worn out? Or supporting the dc? My guess is dc has a EHCP naming the school. However the head and SENDCO need to get a backbone and exclude and very clearly say the dc needs a special school or PRU.

If you complain to the governors (I would) make it clear that your dc isn’t safe and the school has a duty to ensure they are. So, what are they going to do to ensure your dc can be educated without being fearful and attacked? List what has happened to your dc but don’t include hearsay.

Lastly, surely other parents are furious too. Do you have meet the head sessions? Probably not, but have you guaged how other parents feel? You cannot be alone. I hate to say this, but the school will pick off one parent, they won’t find it so easy with lots of you. You aren’t meant to do this, but are the parent governors aware? They cannot actually do anything and they are not parent advocates, but if someone knows them, make sure they are aware of what’s happening.

Amazing response thank you. I am aware this child has an ECHP, despite not knowing any details it’s clear that is in place as it is a small school and well people talk. The class teacher isn’t being supported by the head. I know this as they told me. The other staff the same they are on their knees. Sadly since then things have escalated and our child has been further hurt at school after a week off we let them return with assurances they would be safe but this child was once again able to attack, I can’t go into to much detail as there is now police involvement. We have filed complaints with everyone we can think of. One of the governors has resigned and I get the impression the rest of the board will also resign too. Sadly I think the school is done. Other parents are complaining but lack the energy to be official about it as most of the affected ones are year 6 who leave this year. They can’t be bothered anymore and are removing siblings to elsewhere after summer. One child and one ineffective head have destroyed the school we all loved and supported. It’s devastating

@Lambaandlettuce I think that’s awful. After reading your post and thinking about this, I read this as part of the newsletter from the head of a local village school. It’s a CofE primary and has a long history of being a send child haven from the nearby town. Reading between the lines, you can see your issue is happening there.

I worked in education and have been a governor of three schools and I know very well how one disruptive child can upset everyone. I’ve seen small village schools swamped by even one send dc and are unable to manage because the resources aren’t there and LA budgets to help have gone. My job was to manage and allocate temp help - a long gone resource! At the end of the day, trust has broken down and some heads need to do what’s in the interests of the vast majority. If this dc is y6, I guess there’s a light at the end of the tunnel but not managing this situation will make the staff go and dc too.

I fear this will get more common with the new SEN white paper. I sat this as a SEN paprent who has been on both sides of this.

Did you look at KCSIE? kerp referring to it with the school.

Remember the duty is to all childten. Ask the question "can.you meet the other child's needs here?" If they refer to SEN. It's not just about babysitting SEN children. It's about meeting needs. Being so disregulated that police are involved isn't meeting needs and must be hellish for them too.

There's no winners here. But your responsibility is to your child. The heads responsibility is to every child. Stay calm polite and stick to facts.

Thanks so much all. I truly appreciate the insight and knowledge shared to help us navigate this x

I know I would go straight to the child's parents to sort it out. Have you done that or are you relying on the school to sort it?

As a parent, my number one job is to keep my child safe and from the sound of it your child is not safe. I would be going straight to the parents.

Quote their own anti bullying and safeguarding policies to them and ask them what they are doing to protect your child. Don't mention the other child. This is about their failures with YOUR child. Do it all in writing and ask for a written response as well as a meeting. You say that if they fail to act you will raise it with governors and failing that the local authority (if you are not an academy).

They need to demonstrate that your child is protected from this child. What they do with the other child isn't relevant to you but if they are causing distress or threatening your child they MUST be separated. Ask how your child is going to be managed.

The problem is you can't ask for another child to be removed - you are only permitted to raise issues relating to your own child but they have a duty of care within their own policy so use their own policies to screw them on that.

Yes we have this particular t-shirt.

Maybe in a separate letter complain about the head to the governors as they can remove the headteacher.

In the original letter, say you want a swift reply and state if you are not happy with the outcome that you will also log a complaint with ofsted and do it.

I was on the other side as a teacher and dealt with similar pupils and sometimes other parents would have a go a t me if their child was hurt and I get the anger but my hands were tied. I had multiple but mainly one child who ruled the roost and we're dangerous and I had no support from SLT. Often after they threw all tables and things around in the classroom I'd have to evacuated the class and teach them outside or in the hall. Other teachers had similar in their classes. And I took would advise parents to take up directly with head and take further if still not happy.

We took the approach of saying that the other child needed help and support they weren't getting rather than attacking them and we were making complaints on the basis that we thought it would ensure it would help to get that support.

We knew that other parents had numerous complaints over years and got no where. We were super nice and went by the book being more than reasonable

In the end the other parents ended up referred to social services because of the death threats and violence on display. This eventually force the hands of the parents to engage (they had been refusing) and he was then medicated. The difference was night and day.

We had a couple more years with this kid dominating the class but the overall situation improved. He's now left because it became apparent he wouldn't get a suitable place at any of the local high schools for his needs and the parents realised they had to do something fairly drastic.

If they had intervened sooner it would have been better for everyone concerned. The Mum said everyone had been horrible to her before he left. Well yes, but you were stood there laughing and wouldn't intervene as he would pin another child to a wall by the throat, so what did you actually expect? Several of the kids who he had actively targeted was wrecks at one point until we got very tough and wouldnt accept it any more.

As a rule playing by the book and using their own policy against them whilst being nice works with most institutions. They HATE it because they can't worn their way out of it if you are super nice, reasonable and point out they are failing by their own measures.

This situation has been happening over the last couple of years at DGD school. KS1 teachers and TAs have left. The headteacher did not back his staff - now off sick. Parents have withheld their children - too many parents have wanted their child to join another class resulting in 'fighting' amongst parents.

All because of one child.

It is historically an outstanding school - I was telling my daughter that I couldn't understand why all this upset hasn't triggered an OFSTED inspection (previous one within the last two years) - the school had 'the phone call' very recently and OFSTED came and went.

I don't think that the school will be outstanding again for a very long time

How on earth can this be allowed to continue - one child being able to bring a whole school community down?

The child in question is 7 years old.

why are we expected to stand back and and watch it happen? This school is in ruins because of a 7 year old?

Doesn't make sense.

@ThisChirpyFox Remove the head? Are you for real? No, they will not do this. They can be much clearer on performance management goals and manage the strategic goals of the school. This can be safety for all. The head can be reviewed in terms of performance but getting rid of a head for a disagreement over day to day management is virtually impossible,