Super selective grammars - what is the standard?

[VarioPerfect]

I’ve got a year 3 DS (May birthday) - he’s alway had greater depth in all his school reports for all subjects, but I don’t think he is exceptional.

We live in East London and I don’t love our local secondary options, can’t afford private so considering grammar (and would move house to facilitate that). I dont know though how and when to work out if it’s worth putting DS through the ordeal of tutoring etc if it’s a waste of time. His school (state primary in East London) don’t have a track record of students applying for grammars so (though I will ask them) I’m not sure they will be much help.

Is there any kind of benchmarking test I could do that is reputable? And/or workbooks that it’s worth looking at/using to benchmark ourselves?

For context, DH and I both have first class degrees from Cambridge so can definitely support DS well in the process, but also - we were both absolute nerds at school, massive bookworms etc whereas DS most definitely is not. Not sure if this will come more with maturity as he’s obviously still only 7!

Super selective just means the ability to score 90-100% in whatever tests they use. My nephew, who struggled with applying English and Maths day to day, scored that for Birmingham. He’s now two years in & while he gets decent grades is nowwhere close to the top 40% of students in his year. ie he averages a B.

@pottylolly - some of the London ones have stage 2 where they have to apply English and difficult Maths. Can think of St Olave’s and Sutton. Sutton when my DS did it was write a letter to your MP in 40 minutes. Suffice to say he was entirely unprepared for that one, but as he loves that kind of thing and reads the newspaper every day he loved that one. I think St Olave’s was in depth poetry analysis in written form, up to year 8/9 maths for some questions. It was far more maths challenge stuff than rote learning. Which again my DS benefitted from. Whether they vary these tests every year or not, I do not know.

I do however know that a number of boys in DS school passed Westminster/St Paul’s etc. There is overlap in some cases.
Also mine have all been happy at grammar. There are kids struggling with mental health issues everywhere these days, sadly. I can imagine that for bright kids who have masked SEND needs for years it could be particularly bad. Or with parents to whom grades matter more than their child’s mental well being. Which I suspect you encounter everywhere too.

Thank you for the further comments - I hadn’t considered comps with music places so I will look into those.

DS is not an anxious child so I’m not really worried about how he would cope in a high pressured environment (of course I do appreciate things could change). At the moment, personality wise, he is very loudly competitive and thrives on that, but equally not overly upset if he’s not top of things (at the moment is in a bitter rivalry with a few friends to be top scorer in TTRS (if you know you know!)) and not a perfectionist.

@Araminta1003 thank you for taking the time to set out the tutoring schedule/your experiences, which seems much more palatable.

Generally feeling quite overwhelmed as feel like there’s a lot of options and a lot to think about but at least I’ve got a bit of time to work out a game plan.

@strawberrybubblegum if you have any thoughts on whether I should be concerned based on DS’s writing that would be appreciated - sounds like you know your stuff.

We are in Essex near the very selective grammars and DC was borderline for a place all the way through the preparation. She almost got in, was at the top of the waiting list, but did end up at a high performing local comprehensive on a music place so it's definitely worth a look @VarioPerfect The one she is at tests for 'musicality ' rather than performance.

@everycowandagain what school does your DD go to, if you don’t mind me asking?

@VarioPerfect, I'm by no means an expert: this is just what I've learned from my own DD's diagnosis. She slipped under the radar until year 5, including passing the screening test - although her spelling was a lot more erratic than your DS!!

I was blind-sided when her teacher raised it in year 5 - and I'm incredibly grateful to her teacher for realising. I had actually questioned it all the way back in year 1 - but back then that teacher didn't think there was a problem. Her reasoning was that DD didn't seem to struggle with organisation (which many dyslexics do) and that the reading would come. I trusted the teacher as the expert, and sure enough the reading did come, and I didn't think of it again.

By year 5, DD started getting very stressed as the strain of compensating increased. Funnily, organisation was indeed a big struggle for her, but no one realised because she managed through sheer determination (she's quite impressive!). But by that point the difference between her spoken responses and written work had become more obvious and the teacher picked it up.

The dyslexia assessment showed the phonics difficulty very starkly. They do things like compare reading speed for real words vs made-up words, and also read things backwards, and compare how they read and remember numbers vs words. It's reassuring that you said your DS passed his phonics screening with flying colours. My DD also passed the screening, but her phonics difficulty was always there, and it was far more obvious by year 5. Once it was pointed out, a lot of things clicked into place!

But as I say, her writing showed her difficulty far more than your DS does! But he might just be even better at compensating.

That's a really great piece of writing from your DS aged 6! I thought you said his spelling was terrible?! I mainly see completely expected errors like there/their, know/no, where/were and tricky words like fortunate. The only one which seems suspicious is 'after the fire wears off, people where lost homes they camped in fields' instead of 'people who lost homes'.

Those are words which sound completely different - and they are exactly the kind of small non-visual words dyslexics like my DD find tricky. They read by memorising whole words (yes, all of them) and associating each word with an image rather than build the word from sounds and 'hear' it (which allows everyone else to use very specialised, fast language-processing brain circuits when reading).

You could just keep an eye on it - but as I say, the earlier you discover dyslexia the better. Year 5 was quite late for DD, and she did suffer from it. Others only find it in secondary, which causes a lot of heart-ache. I do feel sad that I didn't realise, and guilty that I got impatient and thought she wasn't trying when she was working incredibly hard but it was something she was genuinely, simply not able to do. I still sometimes forget that sonething will be hard for her (!) but I quickly remember when it happens and the diagnosis gives us useful insight into different approaches to try.

DD is in secondary now, at a selective private school. I do think an academic school has been right for her. Despite being very selective, there are quite a few children with dyslexia and other SN and the school are very proactive and fantastic at supporting them and adapting things. I don't know whether that would also be the case in a super-selective grammar.

Thank you for your response @strawberrybubblegum - glad to know it’s not massively full of red flags. I just have nothing to compare it to in terms of what is expected (to me, the spelling is terrible, but am perhaps very unfair?).

I did some googling after you mentioned it because I do find it perplexing that he doesn’t love reading more, but I still don’t really think he ticks the boxes. He does sometimes skip out smaller words when reading out loud which is apparently a sign, but also just can be an age thing apparently. I will keep it under review.

Pleased to hear your DD is doing so well!

The difficulty as parents is that we have no idea what is normal!

The spelling examples you gave of "realy” and “verey" are more worrying than the piece of text you included. Those are words which he will have seen lots. And yes, missing smaller words when reading is also typical. But as you say, can also be a normal part of reading development.

Keeping an eye on it sounds good. Like I said, very able children are able to find other ways to do things so it can be very difficult to spot - and we can sometimes underestimate quite how amazing our children are being

Enforcing 30 minutes reading each day is great - practice is critical. Have you also tried him with graphic novels? My DD went nuts for them - it's a revelation to dyslexic children to get the pleasure of books without the barrier. She loved the 13 storey treehouse series - it completely hit her sense of humour - and then also true graphic novels like the city of dragons series

Very high ability does change how things present, and it's naturally less written about because it's proportionally unusual - despite feeling very normal to us in the day-to-day.

As an example: I know 2 children with severe sight and hearing impairments respectively, but whose parents didn't actually realise they had an impairment until almost school age. Kids are extraordinary at adapting and using whatever skills they do have to get around challenges, and they have no idea that the world is different for other people.

So I got him to do 2x Bond 10 min tests for his age group (7-8) and timed him. He completed the English one in 3 mins and got 19/20, and the Maths in 2 mins and got 9/10.

I guess that is a reasonable foundation at this point. We will carry on thinking about it over the next few months.

And how did he feel about doing the tests? Afterwards, was he like "that was kind of fun" or "that was a total pain!" ?

Neither really! He didn’t protest about doing it, definitely perceived it as a race and probably enjoyed that element. But he wasn’t asking to do more either!

Fair enough! And that's a good sign. My point was that although you can teach them every exam technique in the book, you can't really instil motivation (at least, it would be a lot more difficult).

Lots of the Latymer kids I've met (and kids who were at my own super-selective a thousand years ago) have had a sort of inbuilt curiosity and appetite for challenge. My own DC actually quite enjoyed the mock tests because they were like puzzles.

I think this positive , responsive attitude is a better gauge of how well a grammar school would suit them than purely academic results. But that's just my two cents ....

Absolutely agree with this. There is also the risk that you go through the whole upheaval of relocating and then your child has a bad day on the day of the exam - they are feeling under the weather, something unsettles them - these are ten year olds, not machines, however well prepared they are. That’s why it‘s important to make sure there are back up options you are happy with, rather than staking everything on the grammar place.

The point about superselectives is most do not have a catchment so you do not relocate until you get a place. And plenty of kids apply for several. DS did 4 lots of entry exams, so did many of his school friends. Luckily he did get a place at a very convenient one. It was in fact 6 exams in total because 2 lots had a second stage. And he also did aptitude tests - so it is a huge hassle, but if OP has one within commuting distance that is manageable she does not need to move until she has some results. There are kids in DS class who moved closer to the area after 1 March of Year 6. Some move over the summer.
And some appear to live far away but the reality is that public transport lines up very well and the commute is actually absolutely fine. That tends to be the case with tube and train lines, multiple buses tend to be worse.

Yes, @Araminta1003 that is right re the house move, though for some of the ones we were looking at, there is a priority area so out of catchment scores have to be a lot higher.

All comes back to how much id back Ds! We’ve got his parent teacher meeting coming up in a few weeks so will raise it with his teacher then.

@VarioPerfect - I think your DS will be fine. He has you fretting in year 3… worst case he will get a good state comp music aptitude place. At least that is what I banked on for my DS2.
After 4 DC and fretting about schools/uni/jobs, I realise that the support I provide or could provide if I needed to, beats any school.

I agree. Even the very best school isn’t as committed to your child as you as parent are. If you’re interested and capable and able to support them in various ways, they have a massive head start.

As someone who fretted about all this and who is now further down the line, I wonder why I was so anxious. But it’s easy to say that after the event isn’t it and we all want the best for our kids.

What I would say, is that my friends from Uni who went into a range of jobs (often v successful in their chosen field) sent their kids to a range of school types. Some paid, some had state grammars and most had Comps. What they all had in common was that they were interested and capable parents and supported their kids and valued education. Despite their different types of schools, these kids have gone onto achieve well at GCSE and A Level and go to the same unis. They will have access to very similar careers. I fully understand that families which are maybe not from this kind of background feel they need to push harder and cover all bases more - and aspiration is clearly very valuable and can overcome many earlier difficulties. But my point is, that we need to be willing to trust our kids a little and importantly trust ourselves to make good choices and that we will always support our kids. They are already so fortunate.

@VarioPerfect Id just move to Kent or Bucks. It’s just more laid back for most dc than the London exams. Just move early as there are residence requirements in Bucks.

I have a bring DS who sounds a lot like yours at the age of 7/8. Bright, not very interested in academics, loved being with his friends.

Didn’t fancy the 11+. When I explained how some secondary schools select - exam, single sex, fees - he decided to go to a school where everyone was welcome.

Many comps around us (Barnet) have high value added scores, and a number of children getting 8/9 grades at GCSE, which he is predicted. The school we chose is undersubscribed. We liked the values - prioritised academic achievement, strict but sensible boundaries, big commitment to underprivileged children, sibling priority. It is also well-funded for a state school because of its demographics. With declining cohorts/birth rate, your choice of schools should increase.

Being a bright child at a comp has been wonderful for him. He has great relationships with his teachers, local friends, some in the top set, some in lower sets. Not stressed about work, the teaching seems to be very good and he gets high marks with modest effort. He gets on with a really wide variety of people - I went to a private/selective/girls school and i am in awe of his ability to mix easily.

In answer to your question…children round here do the 11+ from state schools with 2y of tutoring, usually an hour a week. Some have done Kumon before. Potential with this sort of thing for children to get bored at school in y6 because they’ve covered the material before.

Thank you @Romeosurfs - really great to have that perspective and definitely food for thought.

Thanks to everyone who has replied - it’s been very useful.

@WombatChocolate We have noticed a big difference between bright dc from DD1s state primary. The grammar dc have not all got great careers by any means. Yes, most got good degrees from good universities but some are not earning much or doing much. Education is not everything. Having ambition and a clear focus on what you want (and how to get it) seems to have a major impact on what happens next. The dc of many aren’t likely to get anywhere near the salaries of their dads for example.

I haven’t read the whole thread but posting as a parent of DC who attends a superselective grammar. It is high pressure and those that were over-tutored or started prep very early and their sole aim was to get them in there (as opposed to nurturing creativity and curiosity) do start to show signs of struggle from around year 8 - those are the ones that require tutors for almost every subject just to keep up with the speed at which they learn.

Having a hobby or two usually helps with mental wellbeing- I’ve seen quite a few kids that only focus on academics and nothing else, with additional tutoring and things can get too intense and stressful.

Being good at sport or music is always a plus as they get to make friends outside of their class, and if they’re genuinly gifted in academics and do those extracurriculars will absolutely thrive at a superselective school. Must say we are very happy with ours.