Super selective grammars - what is the standard?

[VarioPerfect]

I’ve got a year 3 DS (May birthday) - he’s alway had greater depth in all his school reports for all subjects, but I don’t think he is exceptional.

We live in East London and I don’t love our local secondary options, can’t afford private so considering grammar (and would move house to facilitate that). I dont know though how and when to work out if it’s worth putting DS through the ordeal of tutoring etc if it’s a waste of time. His school (state primary in East London) don’t have a track record of students applying for grammars so (though I will ask them) I’m not sure they will be much help.

Is there any kind of benchmarking test I could do that is reputable? And/or workbooks that it’s worth looking at/using to benchmark ourselves?

For context, DH and I both have first class degrees from Cambridge so can definitely support DS well in the process, but also - we were both absolute nerds at school, massive bookworms etc whereas DS most definitely is not. Not sure if this will come more with maturity as he’s obviously still only 7!

My DS was consistently greater depth/top of the class throughout primary school and passed the 11+ for a super selective with just two hours of group tutoring a week in year 5. He's naturally bright and can keep up with the work, but says some of the others are struggling. Obviously I can't know for sure, but I suspect those are the one that were intensively tutored for years to pass the exam.
Though the advantage of them being so selective is it doesn't take all the bright kids from the comprehensives. My DD is less academically minded, doesn't even want to sit the exam and will likely go to our local comprehensive school, and I'm fine with that as it's still a good school.

London Borough of Sutton has 3 very good boys’ grammar schools.

Ah yes, what with all the slums, the strikers, the rag-n- bone men, the malnourished costermongers, the communists, the typhoid and consumption... oh no wait that was 1926 not 2026

I don't think anyone could scientifically prove this, but my feeling is that the excessive amounts of work are unnecessary and kids plateau after quite a short time, depending on how much content (particularly in Maths) they have to learn.

11plus tuition is mainly exam technique, plus possibly some extra vocab to learn and maths content. Our dd scraped into a B'ham super selective several years ago, after doing a handful of practice papers - it was a late decision and I recognised that she could have done better (and got into the school nearer our home) with some practice. With our ds, we started more intense daily prep in June (the exam was in September) - when I say daily, he was home ed at the time, so this took the place of other stuff for a while. He practised exam technique/prior papers etc for say 8 weeks, if you take out the weeks he was on holiday/otherwise engaged. Initially he improved quite a bit, but then he plateaued. The result he got in the end was the best case scenario I'd envisaged, given the range of results he'd had over the prior 8 weeks.

I don't think he'd have done much better if we'd started months earlier to be honest. I saw it with friends' children too - one couple with 3 children, they all did 2 years of tuition for 2 nights a week, plus practice. At the end of the process, the one who was strong from the start got a high score, the one who they felt was borderline got a score that was good enough for a far away school, but not the one they wanted, and they one they didn't think would get through, didn't. I feel pretty sure they'd have seen the same results with much less tuition.

At the end of the day, it's key stage 2 level Maths and English so you can only go so far with it, plus the non-verbal reasoning stuff, which is more difficult to teach anyway - I think it's more aptitude-driven.

So, if your child is top table level at primary, it's probably worth doing the exam technique prep for a few months - whether that's at home yourselves, or with a tutor - but I really don't think anyone needs more than a year's tuition.

This is similar to us.

DDs have had a great time at a local comp, didn't take the 11+ but have been in top sets all the way through high school with lots of similar peers as the super selective are quite far away and don't take enough to change the demographics significantly.

They're coming out with all top grades but haven't spent years being tutored, tested and doing hours of homework. I don't regret side stepping the whole issue tbh and I can truly say that all the families I know that did go for the grammars aren't any happier with their choices than I am with mine.

@GloriousGiftBag there’s a lot to be said for it. We don’t live near any good state schools unfortunately so need to move house one way or another, and the grammars that I’m looking at are a lot closer to our house than any good comps…I’m just weighing up a lot of factors.

Are they definitely not good? I would be really careful and not judge too quickly. The people I know who sent their kids to the super selectives in our county would have said the same.

Where do 'people like you' send their kids? Where do the like majority of yr 6 leavers head from your dc primary?

My dds school was undersubscribed and RI when they started. It's been great, they've had a lovely time with nice friends and top grades.

Weigh up the social and community and family life benefits of attending your local school, walking there, being home for relaxed evenings and having more time for sports and extra curricular activities, as well as everything else.

I do agree, and that’s why we will move house to be close (or at least closer) to wherever we choose. Take it from me that my local comp is not the right place for my kids - I dont want to sidetrack the thread going into it! None of their friends from primary will go there due to how the catchments work either.

My children went to grammar schools in West Kent ,they had a tutor for the last couple of terms before 11+ . Both boys got into Skinners and could have gone to Judd with high marks . I think the score then was 410 but the score might have changed by now.

There are quite a lot of children from East London commuting to grammars in Southend and Chelmsford. Sometimes the whole family relocate. But they aren't super selective.
The 11+ is taken at the start of year 6, so tutoring usually starts some time in year 4 or early year 5.
Some tutors will offer an assessment session before you commit to tutoring - but bear in mind they want your money...but equally want pupils who make their success rates look good.

As far as I’m aware KEGS in Chelmsford is one of the top grammars in the country and one of the most competitive to get into? I think as an out of catchment applicant you need to score around 70 marks above the pass mark to get in. Im not sure there is a universal definition of super selective but I think on any measure the Chelmsford schools meet it.

I guess the issue with moving is then if your subsequent child doesn't get in. For that reason I would avoid moving to wholly grammar areas (as that absolutely stuffs the surrounding comps, a family member missed places by a whiskers, was v bright but had a rubbish time at school thereafter) and aim for an area with normal comps and some super selective.

To your original query I would say it's always going to be a gamble (bar geniuses). I personally know of many families whose children were GDS and 'top of the class' types at primary but who did not get super selective places (that everyone thought they would), in 2 cases this was due to a mismatch between their strengths in English and Maths which the 11+ here does not give any leeway to. I also know of families where the younger sibling is 'more academic' than the older but the older got in and the younger then didn't - I assume because of the cohort getting more numerous and more competitive due to VAT changes etc.

@GloriousGiftBag luckily not a concern for my DC2 who is miles beyond her cohort across the board (actually ahead of DC1 in some things), plus birth rates falling year on year. If DC1 stands a chance then it will be no bother for DC2.

DC1 is probably equally good at English and Maths. He has never taken to reading independently as much as I would like so his spelling is awful but I have always read difficult books to him and he is obsessed with audiobooks so comprehension and vocabulary are very good. He’s very fast at everything he does so prone to making silly mistakes. I’ve ordered some bond 10 min tests for his age (7-8) and will try him with a couple of those at the weekend and report back.

Super selective usually refers to grammars without a catchment area.
As KEGS does have a catchment, it isn't a super selective...but it is tough to get into.

Im not sure I agree - it has a priority area but accepts OOC applicants. Latymer has a catchment area and is definitely considered to be a super selective school, as is DAO even though some places are allocated on distance/sibling priority.

Anyway, it’s semantics. I’m quite obviously asking about the most competitive grammars in commuting distance from London.

Latymer is grey area in that anyone, from anywhere, can apply and sit the exams. You just need to move into the catchment area by the January of the year your child would start. This is problematic because each year, around 50% of children in the top 700 are OOC and only a small handful of these families actually move into catchment by the deadline.

Given that Latymer only marks the English paper if you rank top 700 after maths and VR, lots of children living in the catchment area are pushed out of the top 700 by OOC entrants and don't get their English paper marked. For example, DD was not in top 700 after maths and VR but had OOC been removed, she would have been, and would have had her English marked.

Hence probably why the school is stronger in maths / STEM as the children stronger in English may never even get a foot in the door.

If your DS is only year 3, how old is your dd?!

If your yr 3 ds has a younger sibling overtaking him academically then I dont think he will be grammar material?

There’s a bit of a logic gap there. As I said, DS is in the top handful (maybe top 5?) of his year of 90 kids. DD is 5, in her second term of reception, but doing year 3 maths atm and is a fluent reader. Part of the reason I’m unclear about DS’s potential is that he’s obviously not as standout as his sister (at this stage anyway), but that is very likely clouding my judgment and really not the point of this thread.

I wouldn't rely on this as an indicator as your DD will be competing for grammar places against children from selective preps, not just her peers from state schools. It was fairly standard in my DD's class to be a fluent reader in Reception.

Re. your original post, I don't think a child has to be a genius or hothoused for years to get into grammar. Last year our friends' DS got an offer from QE which is much harder than Latymer or DAO. The child is bright but not a genius, state primary was no help, they started prep in the summer before Y5 and did one group lesson per week and one hour of homework five days a week, slightly more just before the exam. It's nothing crazy IMO.

DD is academically average but was just a few marks off in the first round for Henrietta, with zero prep except a couple of mock tests on Atom just before the exam. Her CAT4 was in the range of 125-135 iirc but she's not a geeky child who is into maths or loves spotting patterns in NVR or anything else of this kind. Her school didn't prep for 11+ either, they were just following National Curriculum a bit ahead of state schools.

My point is it's doable for a reasonably bright child without crazy amount of tutoring.

@Ubertomusic I don’t have to worry about DD, believe me.

Sounds a bit unfair to describe your DD as academically average to me, and obviously if she’s been at an academically selective prep school it’s a whole different ball game. Is CAT4 administered by the school?

The thing is, for the genuine superselectives, there are often more than 15- 20 applications per place. And pretty much all of those kids are top of their class or working at greater depth and pretty capable. The cleverest won’t necessarily get the place. The ones who get the places are those who are BOTH very clever AND well-trained to manage the timing and type of Qs. You need both and certainly the latter to beat off the strong competition.

So the level of intelligence of a child is hard to measure (you could get them assessed with an IQ test or something similar) but that alone won’t be a guarantee.

In the superselectives in N.London, more families than you think are prepared to tutor from very early and suoervuse their kids through hours of prep per week for years. It’s hard to compete with if you’re not up for that. It’s not how it should be but is often a reality for superselectives places.

But, given they are often in affluent areas and the SS takes a tiny proportion; often the alternative schools are still very good with a full normal range of ability. It’s not like the high schools (secondary moderns) in fully selective areas where the top 30% are missing because they are all at the Grammars.

So yes, you could move to one of these areas and have a go. Hold lightly to the idea, because it’s hard to succeed. Be willing to go to one of the other local schools in the areas as you may well need to.

Alternatives, if you’re sure your DC is going to be in top 30% and you’re up for a moderate level of prep, is to go to a fully selective area like Bucks. All good if they pass…not so good if they don’t.

Better still, research areas with great Comps…move into the catchment making sure you’re pretty close and get a place there without need for prepping and exams. If you select right, you can be in a school with lots of able children who go into do extremely well.

Lots of people move OUT of grammar areas at this point and head towards the great Comps areas, to avoid the risks rather than move in to face the risk. If you need to move anyway, why go somewhere with further uncertainty and risk, when you could go somewhere which although not selective delivers a great education and results?

All very good points @WombatChocolate. if you know of any great comps please let me know! From my research the ones that keep being suggested would involve horrible commutes for me - I would like to ideally spend time with m kids as well as give them a good education!

125-135 on CAT4 isn’t academically average, but top 3-10% depending on exact score. And I observe that they didn’t quite make it.

Yes, a tiny number get places who are exceptionally bright who’ve had little or no prep. The vast majority of places go to those who have prepped.
An hour a night, 5 days a week for several months would be considered an awful lot and unmanageable for many families. Others would do it and far more and still not get places.

In my mind, moving specifically for the selective school and then taking the exam puts a lot of pressure on the child. Fair enough if you already live there and have a Plan B.

Balcarras in Cheltenham is an excellent Comp - even more surprisingly given its nearness to some very good Grammars - but it speaks of its catchment area.

There are more v good Comps than you think. Mine the data on the gov pages looking at results but also the numbers or proportions of children who entered with high prior attainment. These schools can all deliver good results for their sizeable number of able children.

Research and find schools committed to setting for a number of subjects… assuming the child actually will be in top sets (and it might be more competitive than you think) they might have much of their learning effectively with those who’d have got into Grammars if they were in a selective county. But be aware school policies on setting changes and a current system is no guarantee of future.

It’s hard to have it all - a great selective school place, in the right area for commuting, no fees and no need to engage in the arms race of prepping. Something usually has to give.

It's not unfair, just realistic.

CAT4 was part of admission requirements at another, non-academic school.