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Super selective grammars - what is the standard?

148 replies

VarioPerfect · 17/01/2026 16:21

I’ve got a year 3 DS (May birthday) - he’s alway had greater depth in all his school reports for all subjects, but I don’t think he is exceptional.

We live in East London and I don’t love our local secondary options, can’t afford private so considering grammar (and would move house to facilitate that). I dont know though how and when to work out if it’s worth putting DS through the ordeal of tutoring etc if it’s a waste of time. His school (state primary in East London) don’t have a track record of students applying for grammars so (though I will ask them) I’m not sure they will be much help.

Is there any kind of benchmarking test I could do that is reputable? And/or workbooks that it’s worth looking at/using to benchmark ourselves?

For context, DH and I both have first class degrees from Cambridge so can definitely support DS well in the process, but also - we were both absolute nerds at school, massive bookworms etc whereas DS most definitely is not. Not sure if this will come more with maturity as he’s obviously still only 7!

OP posts:
m00rfarm · 21/01/2026 19:10

My son was in an independent prep school, and one of the teachers there did two sessions a week with him on verbal and non verbal reasoning after school. I also took him to another lady for non verbal reasoning on a Saturday morning.

Due to a number of reasons, we only had 3 months to get him ready to take the exam. He took two entrance exams; was high enough to appeal for one, but fortunately got enough marks to get into the one we preferred.

Every evening he was not doing work with the teacher, we were doing practice papers. It was highly intensive, but worth it. I think he would have given up if I had gone down the usual 2 years worth of studying to get him through it. I also increased my verbal and non verbal skills which was an added benefit!

A few years back he did online job application tests for the Civil Service and flew through them, as they were pretty much based on what he had learnt for the 11+. You don't need tutoring to pass the Civil Service exams, but having had it, he was quicker and knew what to look out for so was completely unstressed about it. He also did ridiculously well in the Junior Maths Challenge (gold award) above his peers who were way better at maths, because they had only done verbal reasoning for that particular entrance exam. I think all children should be taught verbal and non verbal reasoning as a matter of course.

There is a very good forum https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/

It is worth checking this out if you have not already done so.

WombatChocolate · 21/01/2026 19:12

I agree that the forum mentioned above is the go-to place for state school 11+. It’s eye opening and scary and inspiring all at the same time.

Donttellempike · 21/01/2026 19:19

My son went to one of the super selectives in South London. Super selectives and normal grammars are completely different.

If you are looking at super selectives, your child needs to be easily top of the class. And you need some sort of tutoring if they are at state, esp in maths, because they are tested on work at the beginning on year 6 which school will not have covered.

I would not look at superselectives for a child who is going to in any way struggle. The pace is intense. And they are surrounded the whole time by very very bright peers

They need tutoring to do the type of tests under timed conditions. and lots of practice

I don’t know about the standard at the regular grammars. Good luck

Ubertomusic · 21/01/2026 19:25

WombatChocolate · 21/01/2026 19:03

125-135 on CAT4 isn’t academically average, but top 3-10% depending on exact score. And I observe that they didn’t quite make it.

Yes, a tiny number get places who are exceptionally bright who’ve had little or no prep. The vast majority of places go to those who have prepped.
An hour a night, 5 days a week for several months would be considered an awful lot and unmanageable for many families. Others would do it and far more and still not get places.

In my mind, moving specifically for the selective school and then taking the exam puts a lot of pressure on the child. Fair enough if you already live there and have a Plan B.

Not really, it's just some measure of ability/potential, and I don't believe a very accurate one as MNetters quite often say their DC's CAT scores changed with coaching. If it was a proper test for innate ability, the score wouldn't change much.

CAT scores do not necessarily translate into academic achievements, even at a good school. My DD is very much into music and not that interested in academic subjects so the description "academically average" is correct. I never planned a grammar school for her as it wouldn't be the right fit. We were forced by VAT.

Re. the prep workload, if parents think it's too much then of course they shouldn't make their DC do that as their priorities are obviously different. And yes, the child who was consistently top of the tutoring class didn't get a place at the top grammar. I've no idea why but of course this happens and there is no guarantee.

It's for the parents to decide what they want and prioritise. I merely commented on how realistic it is for a reasonably bright child.

Ubertomusic · 21/01/2026 19:39

VarioPerfect · 21/01/2026 19:02

All very good points @WombatChocolate. if you know of any great comps please let me know! From my research the ones that keep being suggested would involve horrible commutes for me - I would like to ideally spend time with m kids as well as give them a good education!

I haven't double checked the postcodes recently, but if you're targeting Latymer and DAO you could live in catchment for Alexandra Park, Fortismere, Ashmole, Wren, Compton - mostly decent comps as far as I know.
We lived in catchment both for APS and Fortismere, DS went to Latymer.

GloriousGiftBag · 21/01/2026 23:03

Ubertomusic · 21/01/2026 18:26

I wouldn't rely on this as an indicator as your DD will be competing for grammar places against children from selective preps, not just her peers from state schools. It was fairly standard in my DD's class to be a fluent reader in Reception.

Re. your original post, I don't think a child has to be a genius or hothoused for years to get into grammar. Last year our friends' DS got an offer from QE which is much harder than Latymer or DAO. The child is bright but not a genius, state primary was no help, they started prep in the summer before Y5 and did one group lesson per week and one hour of homework five days a week, slightly more just before the exam. It's nothing crazy IMO.

DD is academically average but was just a few marks off in the first round for Henrietta, with zero prep except a couple of mock tests on Atom just before the exam. Her CAT4 was in the range of 125-135 iirc but she's not a geeky child who is into maths or loves spotting patterns in NVR or anything else of this kind. Her school didn't prep for 11+ either, they were just following National Curriculum a bit ahead of state schools.

My point is it's doable for a reasonably bright child without crazy amount of tutoring.

Do you not think 6+ hours a week, for well over a year, on top of school IS a crazy amount of tutoring?

I'm not sure my dd did that for a gcse course and she got a 9.....

Georgiepud · 21/01/2026 23:25

Just as another option, have you considered Davenant in Loughton?

Ubertomusic · 21/01/2026 23:31

GloriousGiftBag · 21/01/2026 23:03

Do you not think 6+ hours a week, for well over a year, on top of school IS a crazy amount of tutoring?

I'm not sure my dd did that for a gcse course and she got a 9.....

No, I don't think it's a crazy amount of work. My DD does more homework at a non-academic school. Children at top schools do much more, and if a child cannot cope with an hour HW a day, it's probably not advisable to apply for a grammar school as they will struggle, irrespective of ability.

GCSE are relatively easy, children at top schools do some of them in Y9-10 with no tutoring.

It's fine not to want to do any work. It's actually human nature :)

PinterandPirandello · 21/01/2026 23:47

I would consider moving to the Bexley Borough. Still very easy to get into central London from, Sidcup, say (about 25 minutes). They take the top 25% that sit the test and all of the Bexley Grammars do very well in the league tables. It’s also easy to get to St Olaves (super selective - no catchment ) in Orpington by bus and to Dartford Grammar by train so you have several different school options. St Olaves and Dartford are very competitive but with the right prep, do-able.

Find out the individual schools exam format.
Start tutoring around the second term of year 4 gently. Speed and accuracy are key and the super selectives usually have a second stage English and Maths exam. The 11+ is usually sat at the beginning of year 6. Almost all of the grammars offer a ‘mock’ test run by PTA’s around Easter of year 5 which will give you an idea of where your child sits in this self selecting cohort. The Sutton one is good but I’m sure your local grammars will offer this too. You’ll also know by then if your ds can/wants to put the work into preparation.

The elevenplusexams forum is great for all things 11+ with some very knowledgeable posters.

Another option to consider is sitting for the independents like Forest or City. Scholarships on top of a bursary (if you qualify) can make private school affordable. Although competitive, they’re not quite as competitive as the grammar school entry and look more holistically at a child. Consider though what might happen if ds is offered but no scholarship /bursary element (ie, can you afford a full fee place).

GloriousGiftBag · 22/01/2026 07:10

Ubertomusic · 21/01/2026 23:31

No, I don't think it's a crazy amount of work. My DD does more homework at a non-academic school. Children at top schools do much more, and if a child cannot cope with an hour HW a day, it's probably not advisable to apply for a grammar school as they will struggle, irrespective of ability.

GCSE are relatively easy, children at top schools do some of them in Y9-10 with no tutoring.

It's fine not to want to do any work. It's actually human nature :)

Yes, my dd (at a not remotely top state comp) did her GCSE Statistics in yr 10 with no tutoring and in less than a year and got a 9.

I don't understand what doing years of additional tutoring gets you? Or why that is a good thing? I have zero desire to put a 9 yr old through 6+ hours of additional written work on top of school, when they attend wrap around and do multiple sports and activities and read voraciously etc too.

It's bizarre that not wanting this is seen as 'not wanting to do any work'.

Does your dd do an hours homework every single night at a primary state? Why?

Makingsenseofitall · 22/01/2026 07:41

deanstreet · 19/01/2026 09:29

There aren't any "super-selective" in Kent, they are just selective

This simply isn’t true. There are examples of both in Kent.

VarioPerfect · 22/01/2026 09:06

@Ubertomusic I think the age of the child
makes a huge difference. I don’t want my 8 year old to be doing an hour of homework a night - even on the days when he doesn’t have an activity after school he’s got music practice to do and I’d like him to play with his toys and his sister and chat to me and have time to play in the bath, read for 30 mins (does that count in the 1 hour?) and be in bed by 8. It already feels very squeezed. But clearly a lot of families do do this, which is what I guess I need to weigh up. Secondary age is obviously a completely different proposition.

OP posts:
VarioPerfect · 22/01/2026 09:09

@PinterandPirandello thank you - I will look at the Bexley schools. Commute would be similar for me but slightly shorter for my husband than going East so could be a good option. We wouldn’t qualify for any bursaries yet still earn I’d say a good £200k below what we’d need to put both kids through private school so those are definitely out!

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 22/01/2026 09:10

You see this is the thing - people have totally different expectations of what is acceptable and normal prep for 11+.

It ranges from the belief that zero prep or familiarisation is needed, just innate ability. Then there are the many families who feel okay with an hour of tutoring and maybe an hour of Hwk per week, stepping up a bit just before the exam, to those who say an hour per day, to those who do an hour per weekday, plus several weekend hours and possibly over many years.

In non-superselectives areas which have standard grammar where about 30% go, it’s still v much a competition, but the v able student should get in with a bit of familiarisation. But they probably won’t get into a superselectives grammar which has no catchment areas with just this level of prep even if v clever.

In my view, 5 hrs a week for an 8/9 year old is too much. I wouldn’t put my child through that, but I probably would do an hour. But lots of people and cultures are ready to do that and see it as a matter of pride, good parenting and resilience of their child to do it. And unfortunately because lots do it, those who don’t have less opportunity to get those superselectives places. It isn’t just ability but ability and a lot of prep.

Is it worth it? I suppose the Q is about how valuable being in a selective environment is compared to being in maybe a strong Comp where no exam is required.

Able kids in good Comps do well. They can and do get very good sets of GCSEs and A Levels. Lots find that they are set for core subjects and spend much of their time with kids if a similar ability and expectations of the teachers are high. Outcomes could be the same or v similar to those at Grammar - data suggests based on prior attainment.

Byt here’s the rub….there are some elements of uncertainty, which some parents can’t cope with. Exactly how many subjects will set? Will DC need to be in classes with less motivated or able students. The results may be very good but are they truly amazing - might they be pushed to 7/8 whereas it could be 9 at Grammar. These fears can be v pervasive.

A lot depends too on how much a parent trusts in the ability of their child and probably more importantly, themselves to give support needed. Some have a sneaky fear their child is actually quite lazy, could be led into laziness or fear they actually aren’t super bright. Sometimes mes they believe that the only route to success is pure exam results…forgetting that personality, parental input and attitude and sadly often connections, can play a big role too.

So I’d say the avid tutoring is often a cultural phenomenon. It’s about taking a belt and braces approach and not being happy to tolerate any element of uncertainty or risk, which might be perceived as part of a Conprehensive education. It’s particularly about trying to remove a child from potential disruptive influences. And it’s often valued hugely when parents themselves don’t have enough confidence in the system and their own child to succeed without a narrow grammar environment and don’t have the funds to pay for such an environment, which is often what those with kids in independent education are effectively doing.

So lots of middle class, well educated parents will decide the level of prep for grammar isn’t worth it in terms of what a 8/9 year old needs to go through. They decide that living in a good area with good schools will be sufficient. They will expose their kids to lots of extra curriculars, provide a supportive environment where education is valued, get a tutor if needed at certain points and trust in their own understanding of schools and uni systems that their child will be able to do well enough and quite possibly extremely well. But not everyone can afford to live in those places with great Comps, nor has the confidence in themselves and their kids to succeed. Some see it as good parenting and a badge of honour to push their 8/9 year old to do multiple hours of work a week and learn the lesson that very hard work can pay off….although often it doesn’t, when maybe 90% of those applicants don’t get a place at the super selective anyway!

VarioPerfect · 22/01/2026 09:42

@WombatChocolate thank you for your thoughtful, insightful posts…forcing a bit of soul searching!

If I really force myself to acknowledge what I am looking for, it is that I have a fear that all the things that make up our “culture” are becoming increasingly devalued and eroded and dumbed down. So what I’m primarily looking for is an educational environment where those things are valued and where my kids will have peers who value those things. Obviously easier to find in the private sector but out of reach for us.

I don’t secretly fear that my kids are lazy or doubt their ability or particularly care about exam results. But I want them to be exposed to as many opportunities as possible and yes not be exposed to negative influences. It’s a normal part of being a teenager to want to fit in with your peers, family influence matters much less, so that’s probably the core reason.

But I’m not sure I want to sacrifice or at least add pressure to what are effectively the last years of proper childhood - 1-2 hours over the weekend maybe; 1 hour per night and all holidays no.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 22/01/2026 09:47

VarioPerfect · 22/01/2026 09:42

@WombatChocolate thank you for your thoughtful, insightful posts…forcing a bit of soul searching!

If I really force myself to acknowledge what I am looking for, it is that I have a fear that all the things that make up our “culture” are becoming increasingly devalued and eroded and dumbed down. So what I’m primarily looking for is an educational environment where those things are valued and where my kids will have peers who value those things. Obviously easier to find in the private sector but out of reach for us.

I don’t secretly fear that my kids are lazy or doubt their ability or particularly care about exam results. But I want them to be exposed to as many opportunities as possible and yes not be exposed to negative influences. It’s a normal part of being a teenager to want to fit in with your peers, family influence matters much less, so that’s probably the core reason.

But I’m not sure I want to sacrifice or at least add pressure to what are effectively the last years of proper childhood - 1-2 hours over the weekend maybe; 1 hour per night and all holidays no.

Totally get it. I think a lot of people feel exactly the same. And the route to finding what you’re comfortable with isn’t easy.
Parents who care and think about these things - makes all the offence in the world.

WombatChocolate · 22/01/2026 09:51

Difference!

Donttellempike · 22/01/2026 09:51

VarioPerfect · 22/01/2026 09:42

@WombatChocolate thank you for your thoughtful, insightful posts…forcing a bit of soul searching!

If I really force myself to acknowledge what I am looking for, it is that I have a fear that all the things that make up our “culture” are becoming increasingly devalued and eroded and dumbed down. So what I’m primarily looking for is an educational environment where those things are valued and where my kids will have peers who value those things. Obviously easier to find in the private sector but out of reach for us.

I don’t secretly fear that my kids are lazy or doubt their ability or particularly care about exam results. But I want them to be exposed to as many opportunities as possible and yes not be exposed to negative influences. It’s a normal part of being a teenager to want to fit in with your peers, family influence matters much less, so that’s probably the core reason.

But I’m not sure I want to sacrifice or at least add pressure to what are effectively the last years of proper childhood - 1-2 hours over the weekend maybe; 1 hour per night and all holidays no.

Just to consider, my son has done very well but grammar , especially super selective, is not an unalloyed positive

My son does not think he is that great at maths. He really really is. He’s got a 2.1 in chemistry from Durham. But some of his peers were among the best mathematicians in their age group in the World. And some of his friends have said in conversations him that they feel that environment dented their self esteem.

Thete was really no room or empathy for strugglers

For me, he thrived and I would do it again

Its easy to get caught up in the 11 plus madness. But a lot of kids would be better off and much happier at the top of the ability range rather than middling or struggling in a very bright cohort

nondrinker1985 · 22/01/2026 10:05

from friends who have coached their kids / their kids want to do it. So one of my friends whose son scored a phenomenally high score was getting up each morning Year 4 onwards and doing practice questions. Locally to us there is a tutor who does group classes from year 4 after school for state school kids prepping them for the 11+ even to point of running full scale mock exams beforehand so they can get used to exam conditions. Kids in Pvte school do exams a lot, they’re regularly assessed and will be supported for the 11+, plus the curriculum is ‘ahead’ and homework levels are high.

Donttellempike · 22/01/2026 10:54

nondrinker1985 · 22/01/2026 10:05

from friends who have coached their kids / their kids want to do it. So one of my friends whose son scored a phenomenally high score was getting up each morning Year 4 onwards and doing practice questions. Locally to us there is a tutor who does group classes from year 4 after school for state school kids prepping them for the 11+ even to point of running full scale mock exams beforehand so they can get used to exam conditions. Kids in Pvte school do exams a lot, they’re regularly assessed and will be supported for the 11+, plus the curriculum is ‘ahead’ and homework levels are high.

I think actually sitting a test in the conditions they will face is absolutely crucial. A lot of kids will not cope if they have not faced sitting in a big strange hall to do the test for the first time.

Araminta1003 · 22/01/2026 11:23

My 4 DC all went to superselective London grammars. We have similar educational background to you. They went from state primary. We DIYed prep. I did not like the idea of having to drive to a tutor etc and having to do the homework even if it did not suit our otherwise busy schedule.

They were naturally fast readers and 3 are very good at Maths. One is exceptional at Maths.

They all read fluently before Reception.
Getting in was not a problem or trauma for any of them. We kept it low key. With the youngest who is now in Year 7 I did a summer holiday boot camp, just me and him, bond books, CGP books and a couple of mock tests. I had no choice as he refused to do any prep before that and suddenly he wanted to. Before that he wanted to do his instruments. He did also pass both his Grade 8s with Distinction in Year 6. We found plenty of good comprehensives in London with musical and language aptitude tests as well.

If you want lower key superselective I think Tonbridge (Judd and TOGs) are good from what I hear. The London ones are fiercer.
DS2, my youngest, is no genius. Just a bright but definitely academically and musically inclined boy. He follows his interests primarily. He likes his grammar school, but he is definitely not studying hours for each maths test, unlike some of the other boys. But the teachers definitely like him and he is enjoying it a lot. There are lots of clubs he likes like Classics club, Politics Economics Club, Physics club, as well as some orchestras, sports etc. It won’t be private school level but the kids have real academic passion and the Sixth Formers share that passion with the younger kids (some are teaching classes to inspire them here and there). Kids come back from top unis to talk to them. For the right child, it is a brilliant education.

Araminta1003 · 22/01/2026 11:33

I do have a lot of friends from state primary who used tutors or tutoring classes. Most start in Year 4 or Year 5. Whether group tutoring is better or not is down to individual choice. We do hear some crazy stories of group tutors who set hours of homework a week from year 4. So I do know kids who did this who were bright but not super bright who did get into some grammar schools, but more borderline. And then occasionally there is an extremely bright kid who does not get in because the parents do not do the necessary prep or discover too late that they are eg dyslexic (check that one out). You do need to get the right past papers and familiarise with all types of questions. But not to the point that they freeze if something unfamiliar comes up.
I also think most kids who do get in are either very fast with erratic mistakes where the prep evens out the erratic mistakes, or are very slow and accurate but need to speed up. If you have neither as a starting point, it is completely pointless. And for superselective have never come across a child who was not greater depth getting in.

PinterandPirandello · 22/01/2026 11:57

I’d agree that these super clever kids can feel ‘average’ when they get to a SS grammar. They’ve been used to being top so that’s something to look out for with regard to their self esteem. They’ve other thing to highlight (not an issue for me) is that a lot of the very top boys super selectives can be mono cultural (ie QE boys) and that drives parental expectations.

In my opinion, super selectives offer an exceptional education with lots of music, sporting and other opportunities if you get the right school. I would say self starters get the most out of them.

Ubertomusic · 22/01/2026 13:23

GloriousGiftBag · 22/01/2026 07:10

Yes, my dd (at a not remotely top state comp) did her GCSE Statistics in yr 10 with no tutoring and in less than a year and got a 9.

I don't understand what doing years of additional tutoring gets you? Or why that is a good thing? I have zero desire to put a 9 yr old through 6+ hours of additional written work on top of school, when they attend wrap around and do multiple sports and activities and read voraciously etc too.

It's bizarre that not wanting this is seen as 'not wanting to do any work'.

Does your dd do an hours homework every single night at a primary state? Why?

Not at a primary state, in Y7 at private. 11+ is preparing for selective secondary schools where children do lots of homework. If parents and child don't want to do that and refuse to get ready for hard work, what's the point in applying for grammar? 🤔 It is not bizarre, it's common sense as the child who is not used to lots of homework will find it really tough at super selective grammar.

Your questions about tutoring are misplaced as we didn't do any tutoring and I'm not advocating neither pro nor contra it. I just gave an example of what people do and what is doable for the very top grammar like QE. I'm not in the least interested in ideological discussions or persuading anyone to put their children through tutoring of any kind. 🤷‍♀️

GloriousGiftBag · 22/01/2026 13:35

Ubertomusic · 22/01/2026 13:23

Not at a primary state, in Y7 at private. 11+ is preparing for selective secondary schools where children do lots of homework. If parents and child don't want to do that and refuse to get ready for hard work, what's the point in applying for grammar? 🤔 It is not bizarre, it's common sense as the child who is not used to lots of homework will find it really tough at super selective grammar.

Your questions about tutoring are misplaced as we didn't do any tutoring and I'm not advocating neither pro nor contra it. I just gave an example of what people do and what is doable for the very top grammar like QE. I'm not in the least interested in ideological discussions or persuading anyone to put their children through tutoring of any kind. 🤷‍♀️

Yes, so how much homework your daughter does is not relevant to what is normal and reasonable at 9.

That was my point.