Super selective grammars - what is the standard?

[VarioPerfect]

I’ve got a year 3 DS (May birthday) - he’s alway had greater depth in all his school reports for all subjects, but I don’t think he is exceptional.

We live in East London and I don’t love our local secondary options, can’t afford private so considering grammar (and would move house to facilitate that). I dont know though how and when to work out if it’s worth putting DS through the ordeal of tutoring etc if it’s a waste of time. His school (state primary in East London) don’t have a track record of students applying for grammars so (though I will ask them) I’m not sure they will be much help.

Is there any kind of benchmarking test I could do that is reputable? And/or workbooks that it’s worth looking at/using to benchmark ourselves?

For context, DH and I both have first class degrees from Cambridge so can definitely support DS well in the process, but also - we were both absolute nerds at school, massive bookworms etc whereas DS most definitely is not. Not sure if this will come more with maturity as he’s obviously still only 7!

We seem to be in a very similar boat to you OP, except that DD (also Year 3) is quite a diligent and ‘geeky’ pupil. We also don’t love the other secondary ‘Plan B’ options where we live currently.

DP and I both went to Latymer ourselves back in the dim and distant past, but while still clearly a lovely school (we visited recently) it has changed considerably since then and its intake is now very different from our time there - it is much less of a local school nowadays and seems much more specialist in its focus on STEM subjects, which I don’t necessarily think would suit DD (who is creative and so far seems to be more of an all-rounder). Due to the nature of the selection process the school has in recent years ended up admitting a lot more boys than girls (70:30 in some year groups).

I agree with both @Jumpingthroughhulasand @Twilightstarbrightabout the incredible amount of effort that most families now put into achieving a place either there or at DAO/HB/QEB; it is a huge commitment and (as I’ve witnessed as a local parent and primary teacher) can completely dominate your child’s life for several years.

Our solution is to opt out and relocate to an area with a high attaining local comp, which we will be doing this year (the deciding factor for us was the lack of any Plan B option that we would have happily sent DS to) We also considered moving to a grammar school country like Kent, Bucks or Gloucestershire, where selective schools take a much larger proportion of the more academic children, but this would have meant a much bigger move and we both had elderly parents to consider so not a realistic option in the end.

If you decide to stay put I’d look to join the waiting list for a reputable tutor now (they can be long!) and aim to start tutoring for the beginning of Year 4.

I reckon he has a very good chance. DH and I both went to Cambridge. Our state primary was 'meh' about us applying to the super selective grammar in the next county (out of area made the admission criteria higher).

DS got in, loved it, did exceptionally well, and is now at Cambridge himself. Many of his (tutored) peers were nowhere near as able as he was and struggled.

Check the entry exam format - ours was very straightforward maths and English - no need to tackle verbal/non verbal reasoning. Check when mock exam dates are and make a diary entry to book.

I think from Y5 we did one or two Y6 CGP ten minute tests each week, then chatted through any gaps in his knowledge. Also picked a 'challenging' book to read to/with him e.g. Lord of the Rings, Oliver Twist. Nothing major required!

@TempsPerdu you're not wrong about Latymer being geared heavily towards STEM subjects. My DS is there now and finds it a bit overcooked in that respect. They do have an excellent music programme, though.

So to answer your question more specifically - I'd try the CGP 10 minute tests for Y4 and see how he gets on with them - can he tackle material above his level with a few pointers?

I haven’t read the full thread so apologies if this is a repeat post but Bond Online is the service you need: https://www.bond11plus.co.uk/bond-online

Yes @TempsPerdu I have considered that route too but wondering how much of an impact the commute will have on family life as I have to be in the office 4 days a week now.

The ones that seem most appealing atm are the Essex grammars (csse exam) - no idea how they stack up vs the north (of) London ones in terms of competition. ETA - I think they only test maths and English, not reasoning.

I will try DS out with a few tests and see how he gets on.

@Wickeswench thats the level of prep I would have expected would be needed…but I wonder if things have intensified now as more priced out of private/quality of state education seems to have fallen?

Try Colyton Grammar, they don't have a catchment or Ripon Grammar which has boarding

I understand where you are coming from, essentially you want some sort of early benchmarking data point to understand if it merits investing time, effort and money on preparing your child for the 11 + exams.

Unfortunately I don’t think anyone can reliably provide that to you - children grow and mature (mentally and physically) so much during these years before they sit the exams it’s very hard to tell (especially if you as parents are unsure).

What is clear is that there is a high amount of work that needs to be done in terms of preparation if you are serious about going for it. The numbers in terms of applicants per place means the competition is fierce.

You will have to weigh up whether or not you want to try - go with your gut - and perhaps useful to consider how you will feel if you don’t try?

Framed correctly, I think 11 plus preparation is extremely valuable in and of itself, irrespective of the outcomes you achieve. You can build a love of learning, a strong work ethic and raise their levels as they enter secondary school.

I would agree with @TempsPerdu if you do want to go ahead, go for it and finding a good tutor will be critical - starting the Year 4 is probably the right time.

Got in easily, didn't settle and did poorly. Unusual, though!

Neither of those would make being in the office in S London 4 days a week very easy.....

I’m the North West with a son in grammar, and have always been extremely glad that we didn’t have the intense competitive London grammars to consider/prepare for!

Here about 4000 children take tests for 5 grammar schools, that cover 900 places in total. Still very competitive overall, but can be achieved with a bright child doing 1 hour per week tutoring in Year 5 and 1 hour homework per week. I strongly believe that if you are doing way more than that, the child isn’t suitable for grammar and is being over tutored.

Given you would consider moving, I’d at least look at grammar areas like Kent or Bucks, where the grammar system is there but not super selective. I don’t think it would be worth moving for any super selective process that would impacted negatively on family life.

I think the increase in private school fees has definitely put pressure on the grammars in N London/Herts.

interesting to hear how STEM focused Latymer has become- my DS would love that but we don’t live in catchment!

I have two in super selective in Kent. In year 4 and 5 they took the CATs at school and that score was a key objective indicator as being suitable for grammar. That was in addition to exceeding expectations on core subjects at school. There are practice tests on Twinkle so that might be an option.

There aren't any "super-selective" in Kent, they are just selective

My DD is currently in year 5 and preparing for the Csse 11+ she does 1 hour of tuition a week which is mainly focused on exam techniques. The tuition group she goes to made them take an assessment before starting to ensure they could cope with the level required. She also does some vocabulary work and bond books when she wants to.
I also have a DS in year 3 he currently does the bond books a bit each week mainly because he wants to do the same as his sister.

The Essex grammar schools all have a priority area except for Colchester Royal Grammar which can reduce the score required by 10 or more points.

Posting with interest, as I'm in a similar position to you but a year younger (Y2 child). We live very near an Essex super-selective (which his dad went to) but I'm just not sure it'll be the right environment for him, given his current temperament. He's definitely very bright, maths is exceptional and reading is excellent, and he loves learning. But he's not super academic - he'd rather be running around with his mates or building something, he's very physical. Whether that will change as he matures remains to be seen.

I'm also not sure about the environment of all boys - there are some unpleasant stories about the school online, albeit from a few years ago.

A lot of people have moved here in recent years from London (lots of new builds, expanding town) and I know many of them are focused on the grammars. My plan at the moment is to leave it until Y4 and see what school say, and maybe try him with some tests then to see if he'd be likely to get an easy pass. But my instinct at the moment is that being one of the smartest in a local comp might suit him better.

Yes there are.. some you just need to pass and then you gain a place based on distance for example TWGGS, Weald of Kent and TWGSB, then there are others where the schools cream off the very top scoring children, for example TGS and Judd or you need to score a certain number of points above the pass mark to even be considered for a place for example Skinners. Both these latter types of schools are what you call “super selective”… you need more than just a pass.

Tiffins is more selective than any of those

Well yes it does depend entirely on which grammar area you’re talking about. My experience/example is west Kent which, as I have pointed out to the op is a completely different kettle of fish to any other grammar area. Hence my suggestion to decide what area first then investigate thoroughly what “super selective” actually entails. I’m merely pointing out what it would entail in west Kent. It’s not a competition over whose area is the most selective btw!

@BelleEpoque27 your son sounds very similar to mine - I have a feeling (also looking at all his friends) that this is just what (most, NT) little boys are like and not necessarily an indication that grammar wouldn’t be right…especially when you’re looking at them at 6/7 as opposed to 10/11 when they’d do the test? My younger DD is a totally different kettle of fish!

I need to commute to Liverpool st which is why I’ve been looking at the Essex grammars, but hadn’t really considered that some of the Kent options might work and be easier to get into.

If you both went to cambridge, why are you living in east london?

Why on earth would they not be? East London is incredibly sought after!

I’m in a non-grammar part of Berkshire where we have super-selectives but no 11+

The result is, bright kids with parents who push extremely hard and also the genuinely super-bright kids are skimmed off to the super-selectives.

But because comprehensives dominate the landscape, the standard at the comps is really high. My dd is at a comprehensive with a massive Progress 8 score, and she has PG of five 9s and six 8s at GCSE after a very average performance at primary. About 25% of her year group are working at this standard or higher. And simultaneously my dd has friends who are not even a little bit academic because the school has a true cross section of needs and abilities.

You might consider if you like that idea, and skip over the academic rat race to find an area with a moderate aim of academic attainment without costing your child their childhood spent cramming and worrying about tests.

Alternatively just a regular grammar school would be fine - don’t hunt down a super selective?

I agree. Mine had tuition to pass and is predicted five nines and then eights and sevens so decent but not exceptional for a grammar. Her best friend is all 9‘s but there’s quite a few of them predicted fours and fives and I do think how did you pass the 11+ but I th ink quite a few are gifted at maths and just get it but other subjects where you need to put effort in and learn facts they struggle with or can’t be bothered. I think some parents don’t think beyond the 11+. It’s not easy they get tested all the time much more than non selective schools and some children struggle.

…bizarre comment?! I work in the City so living here (not in one of the trendy bits) means I have a short commute, which is important to me so I can spend most time with the kids. Not sure what where I went to university has to do with where I might live.