Are all private school parents petty minded snobs?

[ReallyTired]

I had someone at church telling me that she thought I ought to pull my son out of his state primary and send him to a private school that helps children with learning difficulties like dyslexia.

My son is mildly deaf, but does not have any learning difficulties. He is doing well at his state school. Even though the class is big he has a good teacher. He is in middle ablity groups for everything at the moment.

He is in year 1 and can add and subtract numbers below 100 nicely. His reading is developing well as well. His spelling is very strangem but don't most six year olds have odd spelling? I can't believe that private school kids are two years ahead already at the age of 6?

This person made it clear that she thought that if my son went to a normal private school he would be in the bottom group for everything. Apparently her daughter is bright and she attends selective girl's school so she isn't held back children with SEN.

Xenia = Hitler?? What's that all about?!

Ah, so if you are reasonably eloquent and don't necessarily have the same opinions as everyone else, you are a fascist dictator. Now I get it.

Not around here. You tend to get white schools and black schools and white flight to suburbs and the outer SE commuting areas. It is very different with the private schools because so many immigrant parents value education above all else and you get a great mixture of religions and colours and cultures and also classes too if 6 adults in the family are putting all their taxi driving, corner shop etc money into funding the education of one son, their hope for future generations.

Also there are scholarships for clever poor children, not vast numbers at most schools but still some. My daughter's friend had one.

But the other issue is mixing - what is the purpose of school? Partly to enable you to be self confident in how you manage or handle and meet lots of different people. No education gives you better confidence and abilities at that as private schools. Just look at how teenagers from private schools interact compared with some from state schools. I don't think you need to sit in a class with people with an IQ of 80 or who have ADD or are a much higher or lower class than you in order to be able to mix with people of all kinds.

I have met many privately educated idiots. I suppose they have been taught a wide enough vocabulary to sound articulate but if you actually listen to the content they are pretty dim.
Also, Please Xenia, don't try to tell anyone that private schools have a more multi cultural advantage over state.
Working class peple and immigrants have always mixed, married, gone to school and lived side by side.

Another aspect of private education which I find a thorny issue, is how to 'measure' whether you are getting your money's worth. From Xenia's posts, I get the feeling that she is willing to throw a lot of money into private education, because her belief is that it will give life long advantages. Which is fine, but Xenia is among the very small minority of exceptionally high earners (at least that is my understanding) and therefore this kind of money may not make a huge difference to her.
What about a situation where a parent is making more of a sacrifice, and where the value added by the school isn't commensurate with the money spent?
For example, what if the difference between a child attending their local private school instead of the state school is that they end up with 3 GCSEs which are a grade higher. Let's say they get A in Maths, French and History, rather than Bs. Oh and let's suppose they get Grade 8 in piano too. Now, over the course of 5 years (assuming they attended private from age 11) we're probably talking around 50k of school fees, which is quite a lot out of earned income. It should easily be possible to make those gains in grades (ie pushing B grades up to A) with some well-timed private tutoring. And piano lessons can take place out of school, so that Grade 8 could be obtained too. Even with an orchestral instrument, there are plenty of opportunities (eg county orchestras) for a child to gain experience. And all of this would cost significantly less than 50K!
I suppose there's the real rub for me - there may be some gains from attending private school, but that doesn't mean you're getting value for money. I would say a few grades that are slightly higher is a very poor return on 50K spent.
If a child really makes enormous academic gains from private school (eg would get 5 grade C in state school but 9 As in private) then I would say in most cases, either there is a serious deficit in the child's ability to self motivate, in which case they may get the grades in private, but will probably flounder at University, or they attend one of the few 'sink' state schools where there is really serious disruption to learning.
In areas such as mine, where state schools are high achieving, I feel a lot of parents are misguided in thinking their money on school fees is well spent. Particularly in the context of the credit crunch - I know a number of people who feel 'locked into' paying school fees now that they have committed to private education, and some of them are borrowing vast sums of money to fund it - which is crazy.
Of course, there will be some people who claim that the advantages of private school are not quantifiable, it's the wider aspects of the curriculum that are important, etc but tbh the same can be said of state schools! As has been pointed out by other posts, there can be huge, but hard to quantify, advantages to mixing with people from a broader range of backgrounds.
This is an interesting debate, and I know I am fortunate in a) being able to afford school fees should I choose and b) having very good state schools on the doorstep. Interestingly, though, that doesn't always make it easy!!

The gains issue is interesting, isn't it? I never felt I was buying good grades. It is am ix of things including perhaps highest of all high expectations, that self belief that yes you can be a leading surgeon or lead the nation which I just don't feel you get imbued with in many state schools. Also I do want the children to be of my class really, to stay reasonably middle class, to speak as I do, to like the sorts of hobbies we as a family like so to an extent I wanted to perpetuate my own upbringing and raise the children to fit into how this family is.

You just have to contrast say some of my mother's 52 first cousins and their grandchildren in a fairly poor part of NE England, a few of whom we met at my mother's funeral for the firs time to see the massive gulf between them and us a difference achieved in a generation. I am not saying we are any better than they are but we are very different, not in terms of moral value or ethos or essential goodness but in terms of expectations, accent, clothes, lifestyle.

I think the local immigrant families who use contribution from 6 wages to ensure their child goes to a school like Haberdashers boys so he can be the first child to go to university and become a doctor. I am sure those parents feel they very much do get value for money. They probably like watching their son play cricket on lovely lawns and they may well business network amongst other parents too.

Yes, you can get good things from the right state schools and if you move to the posher parts of Bucks with grammar schools near you you might well not see huge differences from some private schools but overall if it's a good private school I do think there are huge benefits to the children there. Even those who mess up their A levels as many do - girls fall in love, get pregnant and boys don't work in all sectors at all times, you do see later they seem to get back on track later. My sister might have joined a cult for a while but her Oxbridge degree and her profession meant when she rejoined society she had the education to come back in and earn reasonable amounts. Had she dropped out and just had bad GCSEs from a poor school and all her contemporaries were either single mothers on benefits at 16 or hairdressing jobs were their greatest achievement she might well have just followed that norm. If the norm is a more successful norm then you tend to follow it even if you're weak.

I wasn't comparing Xenia with Hitler. I was comparing Scottishmummy's description of Xenia with Hitler. There is a difference.

That's interesting Xenia. I think ultimately you place more significance on the influence of formal schooling than many people do. I believe the culture of high expectation and aspiration comes more from home background and family influence than on sitting in a classroom with other middle class people for 7 hours a day!! I agree that if the culture is hugely at variance with that of the home, then there can be difficulties. eg I wouldn't be happy to send my children to a school with a 20% GCSE pass rate and a culture of lack of discipline, because I think the gulf with their home life would be too great. But a respectable comprehensive - no problem. I would hope my children have a culture of aspiration imbued by myself, DH and our wider family, friends and work colleagues.
I still think 70K or so (private school fees from 11 to 18 for one child!) is a heck of a lot to pay for your child to mix with nice middle class children and talk with a nice accent!!

ahem!get your facts correct missy, dont cite me erroneously i never compared xenia to the moustached one.

anyway you have just invoked godwin's rule and are talking tosh. so cheerio

Elasticwoman you in fact said on Sat 07-Jun-08 23:59:28
"Some contentious views but always eloquent" Could also be said about Hitler, who certainly was a petty minded snob, among other more heinous faults.

pretty acerbic unnecessary comment heh made by you

I never said you compared X with H, Scottishmum, as you have proved by quoting me. All comments on MN are unnecessary, but I shall continue making whatever comments I like without reference to your preferences in the matter.

i shall of course take reference of your preference.and promptly forget it

Hitler wouldn't be too please with the schools my children have gone to. Only two girls out of the year in my older daughter's cohort at Habs had 4 British born grandparents when they were studying that at school once and one was her. Incredible really - that you get a school where it's your brains only that you get into amongst fierce competition and it's children whose parents or grandparents came from abroad, many escaping the Holocaust of course but others exiled from Uganda by Amin and many many others who put such store on education in a new land.

I suppose we could afford the fees. I can think of things I could have spent the money on but it was so much part of my culture growing up anyway that spare money goes on school fees that it's natural my siblings and I follow that. Funding 5 children from age 3 to leaving university and in fact my daughters have 2 years after that so 18 - 20 years each at say £10k a year is about £1m. Could have bought a pretty smart car or boat for that and a lot of dresses from netaporter.

"Funding 5 children from age 3 to leaving university and in fact my daughters have 2 years after that so 18 - 20 years each at say £10k a year is about £1m. Could have bought a pretty smart car or boat for that and a lot of dresses from netaporter. "

Would your children be better off if you had invested 10K per child in property/ shares and sent them to a reasonable state school? Is 10K a year the best use of money on education.

Just think your children would have no problem getting on the housing ladder, even if they went in to something low paid that you look down on like teaching.

Xenia, one thing you are not is a racist, that much is clear. But you do turn every thread into a justification of your own choices. My reference to Hitler was to illustrate the fact that one needs more than cleverness and eloquence to be right about anything. But as soon as people see the word Hitler, they jump to the conclusion that I am calling them a monster. You are not a monster, Xenia, but I sometimes think you are a Mrs Elton.

Sykes - in view of Scottishmummy's recent posts, do you still think Xenia's post on social mobility through education is the stupidest you have ever seen?

ReallyTired - I've wondered that myself and for me financial obligations end with providing an education that enables children to find their way in life.

Giving children a large sum of equity isn't IME good for them. Giving them the best education you can, whether through your own parental endeavours or contracted out to a good school or a mixture of both is completely priceless.

I agree, Quattrocento.

Education is for life; an economic downturn can wipe out every bit of what you own except for your knowledge. It's what you carry in your head, not your wallet, that counts for me.

And having had a great deal of experience of state schools as a teacher, I know that education is not one of their main aims.

thanks for name checking me elasticwoman. funny i never think name checking of you

Duchesse - that last sentence is a huge great generalisation. It does a huge disservice to the thousands of excellent educationalists who work in the state sector who have real education, not just passing exams, but genuinely imparting knowledge and opening people's minds, absolutely as a central aim.
That may not have been your experience - but it doesnt mean it isn't true.

Hoping my clever daughter will go to private school-and our gross income is 13K!

findtheriver- sadly even the best teachers are boound by the national curriculum, and increasingly, straightjacketed by it.

I disagree, I think the best teachers are inspirational and don't allow themselves to be straightjacketed by exam curriculums.

"Giving children a large sum of equity isn't IME good for them."

Why? Do you think that?

The cost of university is soaring and many young people simply cannot afford to get on the housing ladder or get married. They are financially crippled by university debt.

There are ways that you can put the money in trust to stop your child completely and utterly blowing it at 18. For example a stakeholder pension or a trust.

It would require good financial advice, but there are ways that you can control the realease of the money. To avoid the affects of an economic downturn you are best to have a mixture of investments, ie. savings, shares and possibly property.

Seriously are most state schools really that bad? Not sending a child to private school is not the same as not sending them to school.

Most mumsnetters went to state schools, yet they some how managed to learn how to read and write.

Well the most telling example I have of why a slug of money is not that good for people is of someone I know who inherited a reasonable sum when he was 26. He inherited a large comfortable flat in Chelsea and around £500k. He immediately left his job without qualifying and drifted ever since. Fair enough not everyone has a vocation but most people settle for developing reasonable careers but the money inherited stopped him from having any financial incentive/need to do so. On top of stopping his career, it stopped his emotional life as well. He refused to get married on three occasions because the other party didn't have any money and pre-nuptual agreements aren't legally binding in english law, and he was frightened of the financial consequences of divorce. He's 44 now and he will never make any emotional commitment to anyone.

Oh and I don't think most state schools are horrible and to be avoided or anything like that.

reallyTired - most politicians, I believe, and virtually all the Royal Family, went to private schools, which worries me more!

I agree that an excessive amount of money can ruin someone. I think you would have to think it out.

However if you invested 10K for 15 years it might produce quarter a million. If it was me, I would keep full control of the money until my child needed help.

ie. with university fees, getting married or buying a first house or a difficult financial period like having a new baby.

I suspect that many mumsnetters are not saving for university education. What is the point of getting dazzling A-levels and then you can not afford to attend the university of your dreams. University top up fees are increasing all the time.

Oxford and Cambridge, if they had their way would charge 20K a year like many Ivy league american universities.

Maybe you could invest less and spend the rest of the money on enjoying life and living.