Page 14 | Private school pupils banned from work experience in hospitals

beelegal · 2025-08-17T14:16:27+00:00

“Pupils who want to be doctors 'barred' from vital work experience at NHS hospitals - because they go to private school” [[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15007121/amp/doctors-work-experience-NHS-hospitals-private-school.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15007121/amp/doctors-work-experience-NHS-hospitals-private-school.html]] This will be extended to all civil service jobs. Bridgitte Philipson is a nasty bully. What next, private school pupils to sit on certain sections on buses? I cannot wait until the next general election, this shower need a wipeout.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 18/08/2025 09:37

CurlewKate · 18/08/2025 09:20

I’ll say this again, because I am obviously not making myself clear. I am not talking about “old school ties” or old boy’s networks. There are areas where they still exist, but they are pretty rarified-and really only apply to a few schools anyway. I suppose the Conservative cabinet is an example, although less now, and perhaps the posher Inns of Court?
What I’m talking about is the access to the stratum of society where having a profession is the norm. Where you have seen other people going to university, heard older kids talking about wanting to be barristers or architects. Where that is THE NORM. For most of the population it isn’t the norm. So that is a barrier that has to be overcome BEFORE any of the others. And generally speaking, that is a hurdle our children do not have to face. Which is why it’s fine if a few opportunities go to other kids. Our kids have a few already.

Incidentally,I am not advocating for equality, but for equity.

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I agree with this. If your mum (as mine did) worked in a cafe or as a supermarket cashier, your family may not have the understanding of how to help you find your way through the maze of how to stage your education and work experience to achieve your goal.

My mum didn't know and no one at school guided me so it was by sheer luck that I followed the right path to my profession.

Incidentally, I experienced this at one of the inner city schools I worked in. We had a student, very very intelligent, great STEM student, easily Oxbridge material. He was given poor advice about choice of A Levels and was ineligible to apply for his choice of degree at Oxbridge as a result. It was gutting for him. If he'd come from a middle class/private school background, that would not have happened.

twistyizzy · 18/08/2025 09:38

Slightyamusedandsilly · 18/08/2025 09:25

Of course that is right.

But it's a definite signifier of privilege. I guess you could break privilege down further by post code, parental occupation, parental annual income. But an overt one is private vs state education.

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It's just a lazy trope to use to be honest.

There is systemic inequality built into state system: use of tutors, parental ability to buy houses in best catchment areas, cohorts, regional location. However it is much easier to just scream "privilege" at the 500K kids in independent schools rather improve schools for all of the 9 million children in state schools.

CurlewKate · 18/08/2025 09:40

Oh, I give up. I’ll drink the koolaid. The most disadvantaged and put upon group of children in the country are those that go to private school. And the next most disadvantaged are the middle class children who go to state school. I see it all now.

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 18/08/2025 09:41

CurlewKate · 18/08/2025 09:40

Oh, I give up. I’ll drink the koolaid. The most disadvantaged and put upon group of children in the country are those that go to private school. And the next most disadvantaged are the middle class children who go to state school. I see it all now.

That’s a shame. The discussion’s much better for your input.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 18/08/2025 09:42

twistyizzy · 18/08/2025 09:38

It's just a lazy trope to use to be honest.

There is systemic inequality built into state system: use of tutors, parental ability to buy houses in best catchment areas, cohorts, regional location. However it is much easier to just scream "privilege" at the 500K kids in independent schools rather improve schools for all of the 9 million children in state schools.

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That's the ideal isn't it? Improve education. It'll need a lot more money and a lot more teachers.

twistyizzy · 18/08/2025 09:43

CurlewKate · 18/08/2025 09:40

Oh, I give up. I’ll drink the koolaid. The most disadvantaged and put upon group of children in the country are those that go to private school. And the next most disadvantaged are the middle class children who go to state school. I see it all now.

Who the fuck said that?

The issue is that all 500K children in independent are not automatically any more privileged than SOME of the 9 million children in state schools. You know this already.
It's just a blunt instrument and the children from state schools who will utilise this are those from MC sharp elbowed parents. So those from deprived families still won't get a look in!

nearlylovemyusername · 18/08/2025 09:47

Bringmeahigherlove · 18/08/2025 09:28

It’s clearly not true though. Do people just believe every piece of shite they read online now? Think critically, analyse the provenance and their motives! It’s the Daily bloody Mail.

It is absolutely true, and not for this trust only. See posted above about civil service.

Sdpbody · 18/08/2025 09:49

Children from low income families and children on FSM statistically, get much much lower grades than children who are from middle income families and those not on FSM. These lower grades mean that they are much less likely to even do A Levels, let alone get the GCSE grades that will give them the opportunity to progress down this route.

Not at any point have I said they are "thicker", however, children with SEN, particularly those with EHCPs, are substantially more likely to come from families eligible for FSM and lower income households. Which is another barrier for those children do to medicine.

If we want children from low income families or on FSM to do medicine, we would simply need to lower the grades to allow them to progress.

What I am saying, is that, the children who will be doing these work placements in medicine in these hospitals, will be children who are just as privileged as private school children. Their parents have just saved themselves £250k and spent it on housing costs in excellent catchments.

Drfosters · 18/08/2025 09:49

Slightyamusedandsilly · 18/08/2025 08:59

It's definitely not the same. I still work in this field.

(Adam Kay describes the 'old school tie' system very well in his most recent book - not a particularly good read - but accurate.)

A child in my inner city schools (worked in 2) just doesn't have the same world view around them. It isn't just class sizes either. It's the total exhaustion of the teachers, the incredibly huge work load they have, behaviour in the classroom affecting the quality of teaching, the difficulty of expelling students (no issue there in private ed, they're just asked to leave).

Private ed kids have not just wealth but contacts. Private tutoring on top of private ed. Medical families tend to have children that go into medicine so those contacts are there, also knowledge of how the system works.

Although my DC is at state school, because I work in education, I understand how it works and I'm working very hard behind the scenes to advantage them. Many of DC's classmates don't have parents that understand this and as a result, their children aren't getting the support mine is (I'm happy to help if they want it, BUT it would be patronising of me to assume).

You're being deliberately obtuse if you try to deny the outright classism and lack of equality built in. All this initiative is doing is trying to expose state school students to a view of medicine as a possible career. Something that given many of those children's backgrounds, they may never have considered.

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but I’m telling you that whilst many people do have a contact join that has nothing to do specifically about being private vs state. Lots of doctors, middle class professionals send their children state.

Private school children as ordinary private schools do not go around networking with each other. If someone is a medic with contacts, that is nothing to do with the school. My daughter goes private. Shes make an amazing doctor. I have zero people to ask for work experience. I have no idea if any of her friend’s parents are doctors and I’m not going to goa around asking strangers to me if she can have work experience.

the old school tie prefers only to contacts - arguments about the other benefits of private schools is unrelated to this.

twistyizzy · 18/08/2025 09:51

Sdpbody · 18/08/2025 09:49

Children from low income families and children on FSM statistically, get much much lower grades than children who are from middle income families and those not on FSM. These lower grades mean that they are much less likely to even do A Levels, let alone get the GCSE grades that will give them the opportunity to progress down this route.

Not at any point have I said they are "thicker", however, children with SEN, particularly those with EHCPs, are substantially more likely to come from families eligible for FSM and lower income households. Which is another barrier for those children do to medicine.

If we want children from low income families or on FSM to do medicine, we would simply need to lower the grades to allow them to progress.

What I am saying, is that, the children who will be doing these work placements in medicine in these hospitals, will be children who are just as privileged as private school children. Their parents have just saved themselves £250k and spent it on housing costs in excellent catchments.

Exactly.
To make it "fair" you would need to only have those scheme open to FSM children.

Bringmeahigherlove · 18/08/2025 09:54

nearlylovemyusername · 18/08/2025 09:47

It is absolutely true, and not for this trust only. See posted above about civil service.

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It isn’t. They’re not barred. They are still allowed but they are also encouraging more students from low socioeconomic backgrounds who are massively underrepresented.

Sdpbody · 18/08/2025 10:00

Bringmeahigherlove · 18/08/2025 09:54

It isn’t. They’re not barred. They are still allowed but they are also encouraging more students from low socioeconomic backgrounds who are massively underrepresented.

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But it isn't those from low socioeconomic backgrounds who are being represented. That is what people are saying.

You can ban private school children, but the children who are doing these placements and getting these spots, are children who will live in nice areas, have two parents households, who go to good schools.

I could move my children to state school now, but they would still be hugely privileged children, who would now be eligible for these programmes.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 18/08/2025 10:01

Drfosters · 18/08/2025 09:49

but I’m telling you that whilst many people do have a contact join that has nothing to do specifically about being private vs state. Lots of doctors, middle class professionals send their children state.

Private school children as ordinary private schools do not go around networking with each other. If someone is a medic with contacts, that is nothing to do with the school. My daughter goes private. Shes make an amazing doctor. I have zero people to ask for work experience. I have no idea if any of her friend’s parents are doctors and I’m not going to goa around asking strangers to me if she can have work experience.

the old school tie prefers only to contacts - arguments about the other benefits of private schools is unrelated to this.

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I agree. It's a blunt instrument. But asking hospitals to break down demographics even further is difficult.

nearlylovemyusername · 18/08/2025 10:02

@Sdpbody
Not at any point have I said they are "thicker", however, children with SEN, particularly those with EHCPs, are substantially more likely to come from families eligible for FSM and lower income households.

Are you for real? SEN, as a diagnosed medical condition, affects all layers of society. What an ignorant statement.
Middle classes are more able to put scaffolding around it and provide better support, but it doesn't mean they are not less affected. If anything, middle classes are more able to get EHCP to make sure such support is in place.

Drfosters · 18/08/2025 10:03

Sdpbody · 18/08/2025 10:00

But it isn't those from low socioeconomic backgrounds who are being represented. That is what people are saying.

You can ban private school children, but the children who are doing these placements and getting these spots, are children who will live in nice areas, have two parents households, who go to good schools.

I could move my children to state school now, but they would still be hugely privileged children, who would now be eligible for these programmes.

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Exactly. Having schemes for specifically underprivileged children is a good thing but they have to be very specially targeted to those children. It is nothing at all about the type of school they go to. That should not even come into it. A child who is on a full bursery to a private school from an underprivileged background should also be considered for these sort of placements

nearlylovemyusername · 18/08/2025 10:05

Bringmeahigherlove · 18/08/2025 09:54

It isn’t. They’re not barred. They are still allowed but they are also encouraging more students from low socioeconomic backgrounds who are massively underrepresented.

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They are barred. Read the article (the same story published in Telegraph) carefully

Mischance · 18/08/2025 10:05

Presumably it is basically saying that they give precedence to those from state schools rather than barring those from private schools. This makes perfect sense to me.

Absentmindedsmile · 18/08/2025 10:05

DenizenOfAisleOfShame · 18/08/2025 09:33

I think we disagree about whether these ‘work experience’ schemes are of any use to anyone. But we’ve done that and for the sake of it I’m willing to suspend disbelief and suppose they have some benefit.

In which case what is very odd is that the schools these very bright and capable poorer (again, supposedly) children attend must be appallingly negligent if they’re not urging the possibilities of becoming a doctor, barrister or architect.

We’re obviously not talking about children who are unacademic. The whole premise is that it’s the state school high achievers who will be doing medical work experience with doctors. So why aren’t these children getting good advice about their career options?

I do not believe for a moment that state school teachers are unaware of what’s open to smart kids. So how come the children are unaware of this from school, even if the home isn’t a place where good advice and aspiration is available (which itself seems mostly unlikely)?

This picture of A* state school pupils wandering around oblivious to medicine, law and architecture seems unreal.

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This picture of A* state school pupils wandering around oblivious to medicine, law and architecture seems unreal.

😂😂🤷‍♀️

twistyizzy · 18/08/2025 10:06

Mischance · 18/08/2025 10:05

Presumably it is basically saying that they give precedence to those from state schools rather than barring those from private schools. This makes perfect sense to me.

Yes so wealthy, sharp elbowed MC parents who use state schools will be able to take advantage of the scheme but kids on fee assistance in independent schools won't be.

Drfosters · 18/08/2025 10:06

Mischance · 18/08/2025 10:05

Presumably it is basically saying that they give precedence to those from state schools rather than barring those from private schools. This makes perfect sense to me.

How does that work for my friend where 1 child is private and 1 is state? Is one child more privileged than the other and deserving of a leg up even though the state child chose that school and the parents were prepared to pay for private?

Trustmyspleen · 18/08/2025 10:07

@Drfosters I think I know more than most people on this topic. I'm a teacher in a private school (one of the cheaper ones, not Eton!). I have seen hundreds of my students get into medicine over the years and lots of those students have parents who are also doctors. If not, then they will have a family friend who is or the school have connections through their alumni that can find them placements. This summer I have one student who is on work experience in Canada because they know someone working in a company there. Another student got work experience in a research laboratory at a top university because her mum works there. It's 100% about the connections.

Absentmindedsmile · 18/08/2025 10:07

nearlylovemyusername · 18/08/2025 09:08

I understood you very well.

You are arguing for "equality" which actually directly excludes some groups of society.

You know that 87% of PS parents work in professional and managerial roles? this stat is available. Imagine if they start quietly kicking back? you directly encourage them to use contacts, aren't you?
So people repeatedly tell you that they don't have these parental contacts, that it's not 80th and the world has changed, that many places don't allow kids in work practice but you keep on about networks. Ok then, you leave PS parents no choice but to find a way to use their managerial positions and relationships to support their kids. Unintended consequences.

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‘Ok then, you leave PS parents no choice but to find a way to use their managerial positions and relationships to support their kids. Unintended consequences.’

Indeed. All of these contacts were supposed to have - let’s use them, no regrets!

twistyizzy · 18/08/2025 10:08

Trustmyspleen · 18/08/2025 10:07

@Drfosters I think I know more than most people on this topic. I'm a teacher in a private school (one of the cheaper ones, not Eton!). I have seen hundreds of my students get into medicine over the years and lots of those students have parents who are also doctors. If not, then they will have a family friend who is or the school have connections through their alumni that can find them placements. This summer I have one student who is on work experience in Canada because they know someone working in a company there. Another student got work experience in a research laboratory at a top university because her mum works there. It's 100% about the connections.

Yes and MC professional parents who use state schools will also have these "connections". That's the point.

Bringmeahigherlove · 18/08/2025 10:09

Sdpbody · 18/08/2025 10:00

But it isn't those from low socioeconomic backgrounds who are being represented. That is what people are saying.

You can ban private school children, but the children who are doing these placements and getting these spots, are children who will live in nice areas, have two parents households, who go to good schools.

I could move my children to state school now, but they would still be hugely privileged children, who would now be eligible for these programmes.

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Yes but this article clearly isn’t the full story. I’d like to think the application process includes more than just the schools details.

Absentmindedsmile · 18/08/2025 10:10

Araminta1003 · 18/08/2025 08:01

Imagine if all wealth managers basically said we do not offer work experience to anyone from state schools anymore. It is just private schools. Would people be happy with that? And these are private companies. The business is to manage wealth so bring in people with wealthier families makes business sense?

Ones from Private Schools might just be doing that now, due to this Labour onslaught of punishing PS pupils.