Private school pupils banned from work experience in hospitals

[beelegal]

“Pupils who want to be doctors 'barred' from vital work experience at NHS hospitals - because they go to private school”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15007121/amp/doctors-work-experience-NHS-hospitals-private-school.html

This will be extended to all civil service jobs.
Bridgitte Philipson is a nasty bully. What next, private school pupils to sit on certain sections on buses? I cannot wait until the next general election, this shower need a wipeout.

Good. They already have lots of advantages and interships should prioritise the least privileged.

And private schools all cost over £20,000 plus extras a year where I live, some are way more. It's not parents earning £50k sending them there, it's people with £2m+ detatched houses, family money and people who work as investment bankers and stockbrokers or partners in City law firms.

My Mum came from a privileged background, her parents could well have afforded private education and sent her to a state school in a slightly rough town. She said she is glad. She worked in a hospital for years and said the school she attended helped her to understand society as a whole and how to get on and have empathy and understanding and kindness that not everyone has the kind of life she did.

I do not love private schools. That being said, I don’t think this approach of barring privately educated children is remotely fair. It could be that a % of places are for privately educated children and that they have to spend time in 5 departments across the week of work experience. Eg a day observing a doctor. A day observing a nurse. A day observing a hearhcare assistant. Two days assisting domestic services staff.

It matters not a jot that the career many privately educated children want is a Doctor. They need to be exposed to, and where appropriate (not helping with clinical work) get stuck in and see just how hard everyone in hospitals work to make the place not fall to bits. So have them cleaning beds and sanitising. Giving out meals to patients, restocking clinical necessities like gloves, paper towels, cleaning toilets.

Hospitals are teams and everyone in them who is working and not abusing the system should be respected and their role understood.

edited for clarity

The spite and vitriol about private school pupils on this thread is making me feel quite sick. The comments from a poster who is/was a teacher - and some other posters - are quite startling.

This made me laugh though:
Fair enough. The private school pupils get enough privileges because their parents can afford it. They can get placements in private hospitals.
Certainly not a reflection of my family or why my children are/were privately educated! We are not posh and my elder son is about as unprivileged as you can get.

@CurlewKate i don’t think I’ve ever agreed with you on a thread before, but thank you for repeatedly pointing out on this thread that privilege doesn’t just come from private education.

Imagine if all wealth managers basically said we do not offer work experience to anyone from state schools anymore. It is just private schools. Would people be happy with that? And these are private companies. The business is to manage wealth so bring in people with wealthier families makes business sense?

Yeah, how do you KNOW those state school students who aren't massively privileged aren't the equal of the hot housed private school students?

I've taught in very exclusive private schools and also inner city state schools. The range of intellect is very balanced between both. Are exam grades equal? Hell no.

What you are asking for isn't equality. It's preference. We're not talking about allowing a GCSE Science grade 4 student to be a brain surgeon. We're talking about a week's work experience, tidying the dressing cupboards and delivering cups of tea. Josh doing a week in the local NHS hospital won't affect Charles' overall 'old school tie' contacts and advantages.

@Summerhillsquare , how is this equality?

This ‘old school tie ‘ has been repeatedly debunked. You can make arguments about the system in terms of class sizes and facilities and being surrounded by clever motivated children but all the stuff is total rubbish in the year 2025. Many state and private school children have the same demographics and access to the same privileges and contact book as each other. Schemes to increase access to very underprivileged children are to be applauded absolutely but they should be targeted as such and it is nothing to do with the type of school you go to.

How about just ignoring the more extreme posters. That’s what the users/supporters of state schools have to do!

And you’re spinning my contribution rather! Of course privilege does not just come from private education. But private education does confer more privilege on children who already mostly have plenty. We’re talking here about helping children who do not have privilege a little of what their luckier peers get automatically.

Privilege is growing up in a happy supportive family. The personal benefits of such a childhood are the most influential aspect of a persons life. How is that going to be tested for equality?

Assuming you were replying to me, I’m not sure I’m ‘spinning’ anything, but fair enough.

Why does everyone blather about private school "contacts" on this thread. I don't have any contacts from my small northern private school or from my parents' jobs, which have never really anything to do with me. Maybe we were doing it wrong.

I do know at least two people who went to posh state schools (expensive catchment areas, private tutors etc) who got jobs through their parents' contacts though!

It's definitely not the same. I still work in this field.

(Adam Kay describes the 'old school tie' system very well in his most recent book - not a particularly good read - but accurate.)

A child in my inner city schools (worked in 2) just doesn't have the same world view around them. It isn't just class sizes either. It's the total exhaustion of the teachers, the incredibly huge work load they have, behaviour in the classroom affecting the quality of teaching, the difficulty of expelling students (no issue there in private ed, they're just asked to leave).

Private ed kids have not just wealth but contacts. Private tutoring on top of private ed. Medical families tend to have children that go into medicine so those contacts are there, also knowledge of how the system works.

Although my DC is at state school, because I work in education, I understand how it works and I'm working very hard behind the scenes to advantage them. Many of DC's classmates don't have parents that understand this and as a result, their children aren't getting the support mine is (I'm happy to help if they want it, BUT it would be patronising of me to assume).

You're being deliberately obtuse if you try to deny the outright classism and lack of equality built in. All this initiative is doing is trying to expose state school students to a view of medicine as a possible career. Something that given many of those children's backgrounds, they may never have considered.

I understood you very well.

You are arguing for "equality" which actually directly excludes some groups of society.

You know that 87% of PS parents work in professional and managerial roles? this stat is available. Imagine if they start quietly kicking back? you directly encourage them to use contacts, aren't you?
So people repeatedly tell you that they don't have these parental contacts, that it's not 80th and the world has changed, that many places don't allow kids in work practice but you keep on about networks. Ok then, you leave PS parents no choice but to find a way to use their managerial positions and relationships to support their kids. Unintended consequences.

You speak as if all 9 million children in state schools come from deprived background when that's just ridiculous.
80% of high income earners use state schools. 25%-30% of children in independent schools are on fee assistance.

It isn't just black and white and even Sutton Trust acknowledges this. They clearly say that the top state schools are as "privileged" as top public schools based on wealth of cohorts.
Some state PTAs raise 100s of £1000s each year.

As far as exam results go, London is hugely privileged compared to the NE ie with some of best state schools in the country.

No one is preventing them from becoming doctors. In fact they'll have a far easier time of becoming doctors than kids from state schools.. look at the statistics.
I guess the work experience thing is to try and encourage kids who wouldn't have thought of it before due to their background.. to try and get into medicine.
In theory a great idea but most likely just get swamped by middle class kids who's parents couldn't quite afford private school fees

I’ll say this again, because I am obviously not making myself clear. I am not talking about “old school ties” or old boy’s networks. There are areas where they still exist, but they are pretty rarified-and really only apply to a few schools anyway. I suppose the Conservative cabinet is an example, although less now, and perhaps the posher Inns of Court?
What I’m talking about is the access to the stratum of society where having a profession is the norm. Where you have seen other people going to university, heard older kids talking about wanting to be barristers or architects. Where that is THE NORM. For most of the population it isn’t the norm. So that is a barrier that has to be overcome BEFORE any of the others. And generally speaking, that is a hurdle our children do not have to face. Which is why it’s fine if a few opportunities go to other kids. Our kids have a few already.

Incidentally,I am not advocating for equality, but for equity.

Too late to edit to add - I'm now retired, but I hired a lot in my working years, sat in multiple panels and interviewed a lot, incl grads. It never occurred to me to check which school a candidate went to.

If I was doing this now I'd definitely give some helping hand to PS grads. I don't think I'm alone in having this change of view amongst current or former PS parents.

Of course that is right.

But it's a definite signifier of privilege. I guess you could break privilege down further by post code, parental occupation, parental annual income. But an overt one is private vs state education.

But these placements are not going to be children on FSM or from low income families.

They will still need to be doing A Levels, they will still have achieved 8/9s at GCSE.

The children on these placements will still be from dual income households, parents own their homes, they will have help with university costs, their parents will have gone to university. They will be "privileged", just not the demonised type.

The only way to allow low income children or FSM children in the medicine is if we lower the entry criteria and nobody wants to do that.

This.

It’s clearly not true though. Do people just believe every piece of shite they read online now? Think critically, analyse the provenance and their motives! It’s the Daily bloody Mail.

It is disgusting and should be investigated.
My kids went to private school which was our choice not theirs - they have worked hard to get their exam results and worked part time jobs etc.
My Daughter did the online application for the civil service - got kicked back as yes all of the tests were good but mmmm not good enough because one of the questions was ‘did you attend private school?’ She answered truthfully and now we know these kids are being filtered out of the application system? The career she wanted to apply for and worked so hard towards? I’m sorry but this is so wrong on so many levels!

I think we disagree about whether these ‘work experience’ schemes are of any use to anyone. But we’ve done that and for the sake of it I’m willing to suspend disbelief and suppose they have some benefit.

In which case what is very odd is that the schools these very bright and capable poorer (again, supposedly) children attend must be appallingly negligent if they’re not urging the possibilities of becoming a doctor, barrister or architect.

We’re obviously not talking about children who are unacademic. The whole premise is that it’s the state school high achievers who will be doing medical work experience with doctors. So why aren’t these children getting good advice about their career options?

I do not believe for a moment that state school teachers are unaware of what’s open to smart kids. So how come the children are unaware of this from school, even if the home isn’t a place where good advice and aspiration is available (which itself seems mostly unlikely)?

This picture of A* state school pupils wandering around oblivious to medicine, law and architecture seems unreal.

Are you saying that children on FSM or from low income families are by definition thicker than more privileged ones?