Play date with mum who agrees with education tax

[BonnuitMy]

Please let me know if I’m overreacting. I recently overheard a new mum at school talking about a local private school closing down due to the education tax and how this is somehow a good thing. She’s now invited my DD for a play date, would you accept?

Because they are essentially paid by the government via loans. It would make no sense for the government to tax itself.

Quick google reveals two schools closed in the last two weeks: Bishop Channelor in Beckenham and Queen Margaret’s in York. Both cited education tax as one of the reasons, not the only reason I acknowledge . The schools have been around for 75 and 125 years respectively. Let’s not pretend the policy isn’t closing schools.

Another google search reveals a drop of 13000 pupils from PS. What evidence or number would satisfy you that Government is forcing children to move schools?

Private schools are businesses. They've benefited from zero VAT for a long time, for reasons I don't understand. Private health care carries VAT. Pretty much everything else we buy, every service we pay for, carries VAT. Even period products carried VAT.

This was a loophole that made no sense, and you don't overlook an unfair loophole because, in the early years of it, a minority of private school students might have to move school. That's a shame for the children (and I understand that their parents will be gutted for them) but you simply cannot allow such an expensive loophole in the tax system to be ignored in such an economically difficult time for the country.

Was she ungracious in her response to the closure? Yes. But she wasn't being spiteful to the children. She enjoyed schadenfreude at the loss of a sign of privilege. Most people would just keep that to themselves, but I suspect many of the parents of your DD's classmates will be (quietly) feeling the same.

The thinking is that the education of children is ‘charitable’ in the sense that educated people are a benefit to society, if looking at it from purely a tax revenue basis you get your money from educated children when they join the work force and generally need less state help. It’s almost universally accepted amongst developed nations that education is not taxed and many European nations offer tax benefits or education vouchers to encourage people to pay for their own children’s education. Calling it a tax loophole is disingenuous. Is not taxing parents using nurseries a tax loophole? Private health actually isn’t vatable, is that a loophole?

She was being incredibly spiteful towards the children, it was obvious quite a few people were taken aback.

I’m sure they did cite it. Why wouldn’t they? It’s a good excuse. What were their financial figures like last year? How much have their fees risen in the last 10 years? What have their pupil numbers looked like over the same period?

Private health care carries VAT.

No it doesn’t.

every service we pay for, carries VAT.

Incorrect again. Private nurseries are just one example.

Even period products carried VAT.

I think you’ve misunderstood VAT quite a lot. Period products are zero rated (more beneficial for the businesses concerned than being exempt).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/expanding-the-zero-rate-of-vat-to-include-period-underwear/womens-sanitary-products-period-underwear

This was a loophole

It wasn’t. It was a specific exemption. Very different from a “loophole”.

But a relatively recent exemption. How did schools manage before?

The thinking is that the education of children is ‘charitable’ in the sense that educated people are a benefit to society

We have a state education system that is free of charge. Private schools aren't charities educating children who would otherwise not have an education!

Yes, educated people are a benefit to society. That's why it's provided by the state, free of charge.

@cardibach Good point, probably just a coincidence after 200 years of schooling that they have to close 6 months after the introduction of education tax. 🙄

Period products are zero rated (more beneficial for the businesses concerned than being exempt).

They've been zero rated for about five minutes. And it took one hell of a fight for that to happen, with successive governments refusing to back down.

I was mistaken about private health. Mea culpa.

It’s as likely it is as isn’t unless you can provide figures showing they had healthy fee structures and pupil numbers and good reserves up until January. Private school fees have been rising above inflation for years and many schools priced themselves out of their own market.

Completely agree, but education is one of those things that you really can’t get enough of. The more options the better. If organisations can do it without my tax money and by the looks of it largely do a better job than state run schools, then crack on. I’m definitely not opposed to a few more Drs because they wore a boater when at school.

From the government website “The women’s sanitary products VAT zero rate relief came into force on 1 January 2021”. It’s been in force for 4 and a half years. Not 5 minutes.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/expanding-the-zero-rate-of-vat-to-include-period-underwear/womens-sanitary-products-period-underwear

Ok, I really can’t be arsed to do that but I have the feeling that even if I had a video of Rachel Reeves knocking a school down it wouldn’t qualify.

If you could show they were totally stable before the VAT I’m sure you would. You can’t, because they pretty certainly won’t. And nobody is knocking down schools.

I don’t mind doing the odd Google search but I’m not doing conducting some forensic accounting investigation for some random internet discussion with someone who, probably quite innocently, doesn’t want to believe a policy they support is harming children.

Nobody is knocking down schools.
I’d bet £10 that at least one school Reeves has closed is knocked down and turned into flats by Xmas.

You would lose that bet as Reeves hasn’t, and won’t, close any schools. What bit of ‘independent’ are you struggling with?
You are happy t9 declare it’s the fault of VAT without any accounting though, right?
Going to state school isn’t harming children.

It was more a reference to her policies (business rate hike, national insurance hike and education tax) being the root cause of the schools closing than her physically boarding the places up,

I’m totally happy to accept the schools word for it and it is obvious that this would happen . Another google search reveals the Government’s own analysis predicted 100 schools would close as a result of the policy. Will you take their word for it?

So, @BonnuitMy …

What’s the plan of attack now the JR has been thrown out?

If this is really about a play date, I’ll eat my crusty old Havaiana that died a death today at the outdoor pool ;)

Ah well it makes no difference really does it? A private business had a loophole to not pay value added tax. That has now been removed. It was always an unfair exemption and it is good that the richest people in the country are not being exempted from tax on a product that demonstrably creates inequity.

What’s a JR?

I could have done with an outdoor pool today, very sweaty 10km even at 8am.

I think the difference it makes is that you demonstrably don’t understand the policy, if you did then you probably wouldn’t support it,

A private business had a loophole to not pay value added tax

Another misunderstanding. The recent change relates to output VAT, which the customer (not the schools) pay. Schools were already paying input VAT long before the legislative change (they can now reclaim that)

It wasn’t a loophole. It was a specific exemption.

the richest people in the country are not being exempted from tax

The richest people have pre-paid years ahead, thus avoiding the VAT.

Exactly this. So many people in support of the tax don’t understand the very basics. How anyone can have such strong views on something they clearly don’t understand is beyond me.

Judicial Review. The Judicial Review challenge brought by a group of parents and representative groups against the levying of VAT on school fees.

Here is a link to a summary of the judgement:

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/high-court-blow-for-private-schools-and-parents-challenging-vat-on-fees/5123588.article

The judges ruled in favour of the Government.

Surely you’re all over that if you’re concerned about the principle and philosophical arguments surrounding VAT on school fees?

The judgement makes interesting reading, regardless of whether you agree or disagree in principle. I’d recommend reading it all, especially if this is something you are very passionate about. Know thine enemy and all that.