Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 6

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads to discuss VAT on independent school fees.

It is my "obsession" because it directly impacts my child so yeh I'm vocal and engaged in the topic. It is a spiteful policy which Labour know won't raise any £ yet will distant lives + education of 10s of 1000s of kids, teachers + staff

Goodness..thread 6...and all the same posters from threads 1-5. Well done all of you! Has anyone looked up from the keyboard lately to see that the sun is now shining. Maybe time to get out for some fresh air.

Parents being protective over their children’s education. What losers.

I agree with you that it’s far too expensive, but I don’t see how taxing education makes education more accessible to middle class parents. Common sense dictates it will have the opposite effect?

@FairMindedMaiden - Posting over and over in this echo chamber...makes you....

Makes us part of a like minded community with shared values and concerns .

jumping up and down, apples….. scotty dog

What it tells you is that you should be looking at your beloved schools who have gouged the 100% over inflation increase more than you're looking at the government who've put on 20%. But you don't, because Stockholm Syndrome.

Charitable schools are not allowed to be a profit so all is actually spent - who is actually profiting? These shcools just have far more employees and bigger grounds to maintain, which again causes employment.
From a pure “Labour” perspective telling a whole sector to contract employment and sack people makes zero sense.

Also, again expecting private schools to have to sell off land used for eg playing fields, if they are used in the community as well, which they mostly are, at least where I live in London, that actually will cause detriment to the whole community and the next generation of youngsters who will not be able to do sports.

The money here has not been pocketed by anyone. It is actually spent and taxed via PAYE and is made to good use. I just do not understand the economics behind this policy. It does not make any sense.
Most private school teachers do not actually earn more than state school teachers either, far from it. There are just typically more of them in a private school.

You can't use the example of 2 single schools to apply something across the whole sector, whatever maths you use!

If you are going to say something at least make it correct.
Everything has increased in that time frame, how much higher are utility bills now? Fees pay for: wages + pensions (80% of fees go towards these) and these have both risen more than 3% per year, utility bills + maintenance (which again have risen exponentially over that time period). I am happy for the school to pay good wages + pensions to teachers + staff, it helps recruitment and retention which is part of the issue across the whole education sector.
If you look at the graph I posted earlier you will see that fees rose approximately 3.5% per year. That's in line with inflation.

So please stop using incorrect, sweeping statements.

With the VAT increase more people will send their children to private school just for Year 7-11 or even just Year 9-11 as this what they can afford. This could see many independent primary schools closing, which is a pity for those employed in that sector and our economy overall.
I personally only sent my son to private from Year 9 to 11 and he will go to a state sixth form.
I wish I had had the money for all through though. I remember my son having two boys in his class at primary who behaved in such a crazy way that the rest of the class had to leave on occasion as the teachers had no power to properly discipline and remove them. The whole class had to suffer instead.
In secondary school, there was so much disruption I had to make the move to private in year 9. My son's private school is full of kids who have moved from state schools because of all the behaviour issues in state schools.

Schools that make profits were/are taxed. The 20% is a tax on the fee payer, not the school. Although it doesn’t exactly fit the Stockholm syndrome analogy, somebody advocating to limit their own children’s education choice and lose their access to tax free education would be a closer fit.

It’s usually the parents of the children causing the disruption who agree with education taxes as well. A move towards education vouchers or similar like Ireland or Spain would be a game changer for the U.K.

Are you really claiming that the ICAEW is supportive of Labour’s VAT on school fees policy?

The same ICAEW that said “Delay charging VAT on private school fees, urges ICAEW”?

The same ICAEW that responded to the consultation with a number of concerns, with the actual legislation itself, not just with the timing of the implementation?

The ICAEW is certainly 100% in favour of simplifying the overall UK tax regime, but let’s not pretend that making some institutions services subject to VAT whilst exempting others providing the exact same services is a simplification, and it is very misleading to suggest that the ICAEW have come out as in favour of adding VAT to school fees.

The Times is reporting again that “Minsters will rein in special-needs plans to cut back on costs”.
A lot of the early threads were a discussion on how people with kids with SEND bypassing fighting for EHCPs should be fighting the system like everyone else. Now guess what, they are going for EHCPs!
That is also why I brought up the uni point. Once you give in to this kind of rhethoric where Government thinks they can get away with harming education, that is what you get. It just gets worse and worse! There really is nothing to defend here.

In addition, the ipaper is running a story about PEPF attacking Harrow etc for not paying tax on overseas satellites. What tax is PEPF as a supposed “charity” spewing nonsense, actually paying themselves? Why exactly are these people not looking in the proverbial hypocritical mirror? What actually do they add? They are just busybodying and should all get a proper job in the real world.

That's pretty rude (shock horror). We are all assessing our schools. I am very glad one dc only has a year left at his current one but very pleased with our GDST for other two. I know pro VAT like to think of us all as inbred landed gentry from some terrible sitcom but logical realism would indicate otherwise.

Are you really claiming that the ICAEW is supportive of Labour’s VAT on school fees policy?

No, I did not say that at all.

What I said is that an argument has been made for simplifying the VAT system. New Zealand applies GST at the same rate to virtually all goods and services. It’s a much, much simpler system than the UK’s VAT system. New Zealand has a lower GST rate than UK VAT but it raises a greater proportion of overall tax receipts.

And I said that the Institute of Chartered Accountants have said similar for simplifying VAT and raising revenue.

I did not at any point say the ICAEW is in favour of applying VAT to school fees.

@FairMindedMaiden
I think a voucher system is the way to go.
When someone first suggested this to me, I thought it would be unfair on the people who couldn't afford to top up for a better school. I was being idealistic. SInce then I have come to the conclusion that the current school system is not helping anyone. Disadvantaged children go the the worst state schools. Better off people send their children to better state schools but still their children have to deal with loads of disruption, poor behaviour, cover teachers etc. SEN provision in state schools is a mess and the current government wants more SEN students in mainstream schools. Based on this thread, many parents of SEN children would love to use a voucher and top up to send their kids to a school where their needs can actually be met.

100%. At least a voucher system would be "fair", and indeed it's what some countries already do. It would also mean people who home school would have access to funds for teaching their own kids, as for many that's only the privilege of MC parents.

In that case, my apologies @SabrinaThwaite - I have misread/misunderstood your comment.

But the point still stands that the introduction of VAT to private school fees and boarding, but not to any other form of education and not to state school boarding fees, cannot with a straight face be said to be simplifying the current UK VAT framework.

Which country allows a voucher system for homeschooling? Do you mean pay people 6k a year to keep kids home? That won’t work in the UK.

No, there are other countries which use a voucher system +/ reduction in fees for those choosing independent schools. A voucher system COULD be run so that home schoolers had access to some mainstream services.
We need more choice in how we choose to educate our children, demonising certain sections of parents because they opt outside of state system is so illogical and backward thinking. Instead, help those parents who relieve the cost to state + taxpayer.

There are so many on here that don’t understand (or are disingenuous) about how private schools have priced most middle classes out over the last quarter of a century or so.

Yes, everything has gone up (doh!). We use CPI to measure this. Private school inflation has been running at approximately 2xCPI over the long cycle.

Why is this? It is hard to know. It is neither teacher’s salaries, which have risen sub CPI since 2010 at least, nor is it class sizes, which have increased.

And no, as a PP said, it isn’t profits as they are charities.

It is an arms race led by pushy parents for flashiness and facilities. So, parents want tiny A level classes to be supported (History of Art, for instance), They want theatres staffed by an array of technicians and professional level lighting. They want the school to be open and staffed to look after pupils from 7:30AM to 6PM. They want a large marketing department and many want a large SEN team. There is plenty more I haven’t mentioned that wouldn’t have been the norm 25 years ago.

The above all have some value but parents aren’t generally consulted and a lot of this isn’t about education at all but the enjoyment of a bespoke and privileged experience, often to the detriment of genuine resilience; not a story they tell, obviously.

Several heads of famous private schools admit to this and say the arms race is parent driven. The 20% isn’t nice but it’s nothing compared to the 100% odd in excess of CPI that fees have gone up since I attended school.