Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 6

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads to discuss VAT on independent school fees.

You keep on talking about the elite public schools which make up only approx 1% of all indy schools. You purposely ignore the majority of indy schools which don't buy into the "arms race" of all those flashy facilities.
Just because your own experience is limited to the public schools please stop perpetuating the myth that all independent schools are like this!

@twistyizzy ,

You keep arguing with facts. The rise I am talking about is the average for the sector, not only the top schools.

And, virtually all schools are in the facilities arms race, just at different levels.

I back what I am saying with actual research and data, as well as my own experience.

You haven't used any evidence! There are state boarding schools with better facilities than many independent schools.

@Newbutoldfather My son's private school does not have any of the things you are talking about-no swimming pool, no theatre, no large grounds but then it is a cheaper private school. It has aimed to keep fees as low as possible. It is the parents of children at this type of private school that will be most affected by the VAT rise.

It was given as an example of a reason that couldn’t be ascribed to spite and envy.

And it could be part of a tax simplification if there was a wholesale overhaul of the system, involving a (probably lower) flat rate tax applied with very few exemptions - so VAT would be added to state boarding fees, private healthcare, Jaffa Cakes etc.

But no government is going to do that.

@Newbutoldfather - excuse me but you are missing the very glaringly obvious point which is that VAT on school fees actually encourages a further arms race because capex attracts VAT spend. So the big sports hall at Winchester and Eton into the millions (some donation funded) well HMRC will be repaying the VAT. That is a fact.
HMRC is ENCOURAGING these schools do now spend more capex and less PAYE, making them have to sack staff! What an absurdity.

‘Since I attended school’ gives the timing in that post. I think most are aware that over a long period of time fees have gone up. At the same time 20% in one go is a sector damaging jump. It would be for any sector.

I do wonder if the policy gets some support because I could afford it but now can’t so let’s whack another 20%

It still isn’t good policy and adds burden to the state sector, which comparable countries try to avoid.

I think what @Newbutoldfather is trying to say is that he can no longer afford to send his children to the school he went to. Therefore, people who can afford it should be taxed until they also can’t afford it or the school shut down.

@FairMindedMaiden ,

‘I think what ** is trying to say is that he can no longer afford to send his children to the school he went to. Therefore, people who can afford it should be taxed until they also can’t afford it or the school shut down.’

Ooh, let’s try and play the ‘I’m richer than you, and you’re just jealous’ card. Pretty sad, really.

My old school is maybe one level lower than St Paul’s and Westminster and is going from strength to strength, although they still try to tap me for money from time to time for some new building or other.

I was fortunate enough to make enough money in my first career to put my children through private schooling with room to spare. I chose not to and, so far so good. It is still always an option if I need it.

People can have a view not based on envy.

"My old school is maybe one level lower than St Paul’s and Westminster"
MOST indy schools are several levels lower. You use your narrow experience of top/next to top tier schools and can't imagine any other iteration. Those schools make up 1% of indy sector.

Are you aware some indy schools charge approx 6K per year??

@twistyizzy ,

£6,000 per annum must be vanishingly rare and must be a very special case, as that is less than the per pupil premium in the state sector.

The average secondary school fee is £6,000/term.

From ISC census 2025:
Day school fees vary by region, with average termly fees of just
over £4,000 in the North West, rising to £6,676 per term for day
schools in London (see Table 6 of Appendix One, p32 for more
details). While the majority of day schools charge between
£3,000 and £5,500 per term, 65 schools charge under £2,000.

Jewish and Islamic schools are the most likeky to charge the lowest end of circa 5-7K per year.

@twistyizzy ,

Well I think £6,000 per term is the average at secondary. Preps can be cheaper.

Having been a governor on the finance committee (inter alia) at a state primary, I have no idea how they get the numbers to work, unless they rely on generous financial contributions from the community.

Or maybe they just aren't buying into the "arms race" that you claim.
There is 1 near us, they have utilised an abandoned church, have limited facilities and invest all their money into the teaching staff. It is a fab little school going from Yr R-11 serving the local community for kids whose parents want an alternative to state offering.
But hey you probably wouldn't even acknowledge their existence because for you, only elite public schools represent the sector!

Or maybe they just aren't buying into the "arms race" that you claim.
There is 1 near us, they have utilised an abandoned church, have limited facilities and invest all their money into the teaching staff. It is a fab little school going from Yr R-11 serving the local community for kids whose parents want an alternative to state offering.
But hey you probably wouldn't even acknowledge their existence because for you, only elite public schools represent the sector!

@twistyizzy ,

I admire them for doing that. I have often thought that there should be a market for cheaper private schools focused on education without the bells and whistles. Had I got into education younger, I might have tried to start one.

But the reality is the median fee is £18,000 per annum and many are far more expensive (and of course many are cheaper or it wouldn’t be the median!).

But, if you think I am focusing on the elite sector, you are using as exemplars a far smaller subset of schools and pupils.

@Newbutoldfather in that case I’ll correct :

I think what ** is trying to say is that he can easily afford to send his children to the school he went to, but chooses not to and it’s going well. Therefore, people who choose to send their children to independent schools should be taxed until they also choose not to…and it will go well. Then the middle class will also able to afford independent schools.

I’m not too sure about the last sentence to be fair.

@FairMindedMaiden ,

You could always try asking me what I am ‘trying to say’, rather than telling me! I think I can write clearly, and some have even called me eloquent.

But, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not pro VAT but I am not desperately anti either. I am probably marginally anti, which is where most of my private school teacher mates also tend to sit (including some who send their own children private).

We are all against the way it was suddenly imposed though, but this feeling is both about the government and the schools. The government should have phased it in slowly, to allow pupils to finish their school phase. But schools should also have made savings, cut back more and used some reserves to cushion the blow, rather than once again pandering to the wealthiest, who won’t even notice the VAT.

But, in the long run, when new parents decide whether to send their children private or not, it will be the same decision parents made before VAT- can we afford it or not? It was always a massive luxury which most people can’t afford. It has just been nudged a little further along the luxury spectrum. This isn’t a tragedy.

This is exactly right, and once private schools are charging double their old price and funneling the money into fifteen Steinways or a stable full of horses, (real examples which are extreme, but all overcharging schools are in this arms race) you're not paying for an education, you're paying for the luxuries on top. Which is fine if you want to and can afford to buy that, but also why complaints about a luxury tax ring hollow, particularly when waves around at state of everything else in the country

And how about this state boarding school which is VAT exempt?

Yeah, I don't really think the state should be paying for horses at schools either. Happy to have that detail tacked on to the bill to deal with that one specific situation.

VAT Doesn’t differentiate between ‘overcharging schools’ and fairly charging schools. As a stand-alone private institution it is more expensive to provide the same level of provision as state, so even a basic provision will cost more if provided privately. Most of us arent in private for Steinways or horses, we just want something that isn’t consistently available in state - that may be send support, an alternative curriculum, personalised learning support, etc.

Well the state is paying for horses. You are paying for horses but the parents don't pay VAT

You are paying for the watersports centre at this state school
https://www.windermereschool.co.uk/boarding/?utm_source=GAds&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Junior-School-UK&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21722829034&gclid=CjwKCAjw3MXBBhAzEiwA0vLXQTJxROYAHD5oqhwZaKlk7VnHmj2FLYUu24OQA_iKYPxFGLDkuLzfpxoCrjkQAvD_BwE#

Amazing sports facilities courtesy of the taxpayer and they tour Sri Lanka
https://www.lrgs.org.uk/sport