Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 5

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a continuation thread in anticipation of the fourth one filling up…

www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4?page=39

Of course, spotting the difference between these two scenarios will not be easy - which could also mean that HMRC takes a hard line on anything straying too far into dropping fees and topping up with donations.

I wonder if any school will be brave enough to try it.

Well personally I still think the court case will be a win, because on a pure common sense basis, how can a Government tax parents providing an education which is mandatory in this country for 4-18 year olds. It makes no sense.
So I doubt private schools are going to have to do that, but we do know that many people did prepay and that despite lots of bluff over challenges, we know HMRC is unlikely to have the manpower to go and challenge prepayment schemes that have existed for many years.

And what happens if a significant proportion of the parents don’t pay the voluntary donation? You can’t discriminate on who gets the extras?

Your model is high risk.

@SabrinaThwaite - well it is a bit like the voluntary contributions for all our state school trips, is it not? They cannot insist but if people do not pay up, it won’t go ahead.

So the parents that have paid the voluntary donation leave, and the school bumps along on a minimal offering for the ones that stay. Which might be a viable offering for those that want a cheap, basic, no frills school.

Might be an option for a school which doesn't think their parents will be able to afford the VAT. Better to give this strategy a chance rather than drag out a losing battle, with fewer and fewer children until it has to close.

They would need to do it before losing too many parents though: I can imagine that existing parents would go for it to keep the school running, but it might scare off new parents. No one wants their DC's education disrupted due to their school closing.

I do think most parents would pay the suggested donation if a school did it - if the total amount (with the higher rate tax claimed back) was the same as fees were pre-VAT. Private school parents are obviously very committed to their children's education.

But hopefully the VAT will be removed in 4 years. So even those schools in trouble may try to limp along for those years instead.

DD's school would see it as damaging reputation, and would never do it. But they're not at risk of closure. I'd imagine it would only be a considered by a school as a last-ditch attempt to stay open.

Hopefully so

I personally do think there is the demand for selective private schools with no frills but excellent academics, where the parents then buy on additional outside providers hobbies, for example. It is what happens in our state school. Loads of clubs breakfast, lunch and after school that you have to pay for, but the state plus option is there. Obviously the school is not selective at primary level. You don’t have to pay VAT on outside one man business/small group providers below the VAT threshold anyway. Even at one of my children’s grammar schools you had to buy Latin to GCSE level as an after school or lunch time club, just like eg Lamda. If the VAT stays, then the schools will have to start moving that way and laying off the multitude of PE teachers potentially. The music teachers employed by the school to protect the teachers is a VATable service now, but those that are not employed is not VATable. It is all upside down and discouraging private schools from giving employee protection to staff.

Maybe. But at the lower end of fees/provision, the loss of the £8k government education subsidy makes the value of private more questionable.

With £20k, a school can make education qualitatively different to the state offering.

With £10k, it won't be very different to the £8k education the state would pay for. So you could pay for extras and do state+ with that subsidy, instead of paying the whole £10k yourself.

I've seen schools with very low fees where they want to offer aomething very different, like a religious school.

But I don't see what the benefit would really be for a school where the approach is similar to state. Wouldn't you just use the £140k it would cost you to instead get into state schools you preferred? Even if that meant renting somewhere. Parents considering fees place a high value on education, and most would be willing to do something inconvenient.

Presumably, the higher staff/student ratio needed to create a calm environment with small classes - which some pp have found to be a haven for their children with SEN - also costs closer to £20k than £8k per year

If it could be done with the funding state schools have, then the pp would presumably not have been denied an education for her DC for 3 years until she decided to pay for private. It's just a shame that she then had to forfeit the £8k her DC was entitled to, in order to be permitted to provide the higher funding he needs.

@strawberrybubblegum - I think some people will start thinking outside the box with overwhelmed state schools and a punitive tax on private education.

Where I live there are a number of high quality ex primary teachers who do 11 plus tuition but some have also started teaching homeschooled children during the day. It’s actually cheaper now to hire a teacher daily for 3 hours for a small group of kids and high quality targeted teaching. If you are a creative working from home and travel with your kids extensively and want flexibility and targeted teaching, it may well be a model more and more end up actively choosing and not just those with kids with SEND. For the latter, many have already been forced down this route. You can cover the primary curriculum in Maths and English in 2 hours targeted very small group teaching a day.
The state has clearly also realised this model is cheaper for some kids with SEND hence all the EOTAS packages.

Yes, that poster is me.

This is exactly how I feel. We barely had a choice. And yet we’ve been penalised and criticised due to allegedly having “the broadest shoulders” and buying privilege. No, we have a disabled child whose needs couldn’t be met in state. And as a result we’re subsidising others with vastly bigger incomes than we have.

The state has clearly also realised this model is cheaper for some kids with SEND hence all the EOTAS packages.

This isn’t the case. EOTAS/EOTIS (with or without the C on the end) is only legally possible if it is (legally) inappropriate for the provision to be made in a school or college as per section 61 of the Children and Families Act 2014. It cannot be provided just because someone thinks it is cheaper.

Done correctly/lawfully, it is not cheaper anyway. A good EOTAS package is actually not the cheap option. It can be incredibly expensive (for many it can be every bit as expensive as an independent SS and sometimes more). It is not a few hours of tuition (and maybe a bit of therapy and mindjam/exercise if they are feeling generous) some LAs think they can get away with.

And LAs do not like EOTAS/EOTIS, which is why so many have to appeal. They see it as having less control.

The increase in EOTAS/EOTIS packages is more about the number of children and young people being failed and traumatised by the system. And an increase in parental awareness that they can pursue it via SENDIST, that the LA cannot compel them to organise, facilitate or deliver the provision because it is not EHE, and the increase in older young people with EHCP for whom there are fewer placements, especially for certain presentations.

@strawberrybubblegum
For £15K private schools could offer a no frills education with paid for extracurricular. I think many parents at the cheaper end of the scale just want a school which will deliver the academics without all the disruption and poor discipline that is prevalent in many state schools.

15K + 20% VAT

The state should not be charging for the basic element of education which is mandatory, by law. They should be giving everyone the equivalent of the basic element of education either in a state school or as vouchers to be used in a private school setting or for home education to be applied against set types of activity/books/registered tutors. As they want to regulate home educators, that is even more the case.
The old fashioned version of cramming thousands of kids into school buildings is not working for many children anymore. There has to be more choice and flexibility for all, in the system.

You are not wrong here.

I have a friend who is home-schooling with a mix of uni lecturers (UK and overseas), teachers, tutors and huge numbers of trips.

I'm honestly really envious of what she has put together for her DC. They are getting stellar grades in exams, and are really engaged and interested in a huge range of subjects.

It's not cheap, but considerably less than a private school.

The biggest cost is that she has given up her career to facilitate it - so cost to family and country.

If I was doing it again I would home school + use an online school/tutors.
If I had a child in primary I would be 100% planning that for secondary. Under a Labour government at least.

But we know that some state schools (the type it is argued on here that the wealthy parents buy themselves into catchment for) do deliver great results with modest funds particularly with the support and involvement of parents. It is argued on here that these families probably have most privilege. Are you saying that this state education is inferior to 'qualitatively different' private provision and they aren't that privileged after all? It seems to be mixed messaging. I understand the argument for SEN teaching but not so much for mainstream.

If one well educated parent is giving up work AND paying a lot of tutors then the cost including loss of income is likely to be higher than paying for an average private school (depending on whether you're looking at London prices I guess, about £15 to £20k a year where I am)

Are you saying that this state education is inferior to 'qualitatively different' private provision and they aren't that privileged after all? It seems to be mixed messaging.

It's almost as though there are many different private school parents, all with different experiences, different requirements and different opinions . I know that concept means holding several ideas in your mind at the same time...

My DD doesn't have SEN. I do think a great private school is qualitatively different to a state school. Different to most state schools, anyway - there's a huge variety. For me, it's not about exam results or Uni admission, but the broader concept of education. That's why I spend so much of my money sending DD to one.

You chose different ways to spend your money, presumably giving your DC different privilege. You know privilege isn't binary, right? Nor even linear. There are many different privileges.

In addition to making different priority calls from me on how to use your own money, you took £8k per year subsidised education from the state - which I didn’t - which left you more of your own income to buy even more stuff/experiences/privilege for your kids.

Which of us is more privileged? Who knows. We chose differently. Frankly, I really don't care.

I certainly don't think I have any more obligation to spend even more of my money on other people's children than you do. In fact, given your £8k per year subsidy, I'd say any obligation falls pretty squarely on you.

Other pp have children with SEN. They may also feel that the experience they get from their private schools is qualitatively different... in that their children were actually able to attend them.

They might have preferred to have a state school, but that option isn't available to them. That lack of choice has had a negative impact on their lives - which sucks. They are right to think that both of us are more privileged than them wrt education. We both had options which we are happier with than they are with their options.

I think they have even less obligation to spend their money on other people's children. They didn’t even have the option to take that £8k per year subsidy.

Wow, that does sound amazing! I suspect that if it works well, that could be the very best option.

It would take a lot of confidence to forge that path though, when you're doing everything for the first time as a parent. I'd be worried that I was missing something critical! It might be less intimidating if you were a teacher, so you were confident about the trade-offs you were making.