Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

I agree with Labraradabrador. You’re obviously free to collect your own statistics in whatever way you prefer, KendricksGin

I’ve clearly missed the part where published government statistics would offer a full ‘backstory’ to each instance of say, school closures

Congratulations to you and your DS NebulousPhoneNotes that is lovely news.

Not true for a lot of families that their kids can stay in private schools though, otherwise state schools wouldn’t be seeing them in their applications.

The Times article linked to above is based on individual high performing state schools’ reporting their own experiences, but there will be hard data on this question available, after it’s collected by local authorities and reported to central government.

Other articles recently have highlighted private school pupils struggling to get a place ar any local state school due to them all being full up, let alone getting into the type of very desirable school that your DS is going to.

Particularly in rural areas this is going to be a huge challenge, local authorities rightly have a duty to pay for school transport for kids if they can’t find them a school place within a reasonable distance. That’s fair enough but that’s a local authority funded taxi for their child going way out area twice a day - which will also affect a child’s integration socially- now paid for by taxpayer, plus the education costs for the take up of their state school place.

If you are referring to me, it is nothing to do with sensationalism, its the fact that the government refuse to keep data or track transfer numbers. So I post in here for visibility and so that someone, somewhere is raising attention to the numbers.

“Because let’s face it, many of these kids will stay private if they don’t get into the small number of selective or excellent sixth forms. They won’t be going to the local standard comp, which is what my son would have done if he didn’t get into the one he did. It’s not a case for them of state regardless, irs a case of state dependent.”

@NebulousPhoneNotes - lots of state Sixth Forms offer conditional offers. Own of my DC had high predicted grades across the board and got a lot of offers for Sixth Form, which much lower required pass grades which she could have easily achieved. For us they came through before the Easter holidays so I assume a lot of private school parents with low offers will already have given notice now to their private schools and will be taking those places.

Your answer illustrates the exact attitude that somehow those who have gone private before do not deserve a state place. They do in a country with universal free state education. They saved the tax payer money for years. And many will be meeting the grades. It is exactly why I was always worried about Sixth Form entry, not least because it is not centralised, the LAs are removed from the process, it is handled by the schools directly and nobody knows what will happen in August. I assume in all likelihood the external places in highly regarded Sixth Forms should go to private schools pupils, not least because many other state educated kids can get their places in their existing schools. Whereas the private school lot cannot.

I think at this point, the main concern should be that all children who want to do A levels/IB and have the grades, can attend Sixth Forms that can offer the A level courses they wish to study.
In selective Sixth Forms, often the most popular A level courses are allocated to the highest achievers. So the issue is not just getting a place, but getting the right subject allocation, which is critical for university entry and competitive courses.

Thanks @twistyizzy

Glad your DS got the school he wanted @NebulousPhoneNotes

When you say he got it on merit are you suggesting that students who came from private school didn't?! You know they all sat the same exams, right? In 2 years time, when your DS accepts his Uni place, will you say your DS got it on merit? Despite having done his A levels at a top state school, which is far, far closer in results and outcomes to private schools than to schools in the bottom quintile of state. Plus he will have had the boost in offers which Universities like Cambridge give to state students over private ignoring the enormous difference between top state schools and bottom state schools. Not talking about contextual offers - which do take that into account - just the plain state vs private quotas (Cambridge have now dropped the official quotas, but similar undoubtedly still exists elsewhere/less formally).

Of course you should still say he got his Uni place on merit. He will have worked hard and achieved his results. Himself. Exactly like the private school students did. So stop implying that they didn't get in on merit.

It seems that you're also implying that private school students should leave those 6th form places for existing state school students. In fact, you're sounding pretty negative towards the incoming private kids with trying their luck.

Really?!?

All the time that we've paid for our own children's education, we've been told that there's a state school place available for them if we want it. That this is we pay for their whole education ourselves out of taxed income, even the 8k per year we're saving the taxpayer. That's why we've been paying 5k income tax on the 8k we're subbing the government each year. And now an extra 4k per year VAT.

And now you're saying that school place shouldn't be available to us after all?!?

Well I'll have my 8k state school funding + £5k income tax on that + £4k VAT back from the government then please. Per year.

Whilst we're at it, I'm feeling pretty pissed off at the £10s of thousands of tax which I'm paying each year and getting nothing back from because it's all either means tested or else completely unavailable because we're the only buggers contributing to it.

And all the while, people on Mumsnet insulting us and making very clear that they are quite keen for our children to suffer and their schools to close. I will never forget or forgive this.

Fair enough @nebulousphonenotes . I'm sensitive because it keeps being said on these threads.

In conjunction with you seeming to imply that the 6th form places should be saved for the state kids, it hit a nerve.

"You have to pay more and more tax, but you don't get any of the things your tax pays for because you're too rich"

"And we don't care if we break the things you rely on instead. Because you're rich, so we don't need to care about you. We'll just extract as much as we can from you."

For me, the social contract is broken.

Especially on a thread about the school closures.

But I shouldn't derail.

Back to the latest school closure, and why it's nothing at all to do with VAT, NI increases and business rates.

And won't harm anyone at all, apart from privileged kids who obviously don't count.

LMAO that BP and many posters on here want our "sharp elbows" and aspiration in the state sector yet can't stand it when we use those to stick up for our kids who are being targeted by the government just because they go to independent schools!

You thought we would meekly accept this? 🤣🤣

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gdn5x59wwo

Saw this this morning. Why the UK is penalising one of it's main draws and higher education feeds is beyond me.

Sorry would be a bit more appropriate. And sensitivity isn't an excuse for the tone of your post.

Ideology. That's all.

Or just votes. People believed the spin. Well many did on here.

I would certainly accept an apology from the poster for implying that private students are less entitled to a place in a top state 6th form than kids like hers who have been "state all the way through". Totally agree that deserves re-thinking on her part and an apology from her once she's thought it through.

She hasn't even clarified that she didn't mean that though.

What she did clarify was that she hadn't meant that private kids weren't getting in "on merit".

It's not really an apology to say "I appreciate it wasn’t clear", but I can accept that was crossed wires.

I read no such things when I read their post whilst your post seemed to automatically assume it was some kind of attack. Funny that.

You're right, your bias in reading comprehension is quite evident.

Why would we go back to a position that you have invented?

Yes, all the more reason to provide some qualitative information around the closure.

The irony is that you can't even see that the enormous chip on your shoulder distorts any chance of reasonable comprehension.

Nigeria, India, China, South Korea etc - all countries that really value high quality education and increasingly the Middle East too that has already lapped up 240k U.K. taxpayers and is aiming to attract 2-3 time that in the next 10-20 years. The British private school model will thrive in all these types of countries. And the bit the numpties here are failing to understand is how it does feed into a higher education brand too.
If we keep haemorrhaging aspiration and higher rate tax payers then good luck to all of us.
@strawberrybubblegum - if the social contract is broken for you, let your DCs finish their education here and then go and contribute to another country long term when they work.

On the issue of Chinese, just been informed that a GDST school has been bought by Chinese investors. So fees will rise and it will become mainly overseas students. GDST is a strong group so it's very worrying.
This is why we are saying that independent schools will become more elite, overseas clients value a British independent education and will pay £££ for it. Thereby pricing local parents out, this school is the only girls' school in the area and just announced a significant fee rise + VAT.