Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

“In my opinion private schools, grammar schools and faith schools restrict, rather than increase choice. Oops, another unpopular opinion!”

You are entitled to your opinion, of course. But it is an ideological opinion, just like everyone else’s. And because it already represents the majority, you have to be careful about discriminating against the other ideologies, which are the minorities.

Plus I will state the obvious again. The UK already has an 11 plus system. It is called KS2 SATS and it is far more intense than many other European countries run for proper grammar systems.

@Lebr1 I know of no child who has “sacrificed their own progress to facilitate the progress of another student”!

One reason I paid school fees was for single sex education (although is hard to find tin eh private sector in 2025 - three of the four day privates where my children went are still single sex but one just went mixed sex). Another reason was I wanted academic selection so the children were educated with children at a fairly similar level - of course that then means the school chooses you and you might not get in (just like state grammars) but happy to take that risk.

grammar schools and faith schools result in the uneven division of a fixed amount of resources - the state spends about 60 billion on education, and the more segregated state schools are, the more unequal opportunity is within them. ie. an unequal division of a fixed size of pie.

Private schools result in an additional 8 billion pounds per year national spend on education and relieve the state of the necessity of of educating 600k kids that it would otherwise have to, meaning the 60 billion of state funding can be concentrated on the 94% of kids in state schools. i.e. a bigger pie.

You may not like any of them, and that's your right, but economically they're quite different.

But that is what happens if they are the Class Learning Mentor.

People wonder why the very top private schools get so many into Oxbridge. Because they are teaching well beyond the test. The exams are not the whole focus.

If you have a child who is superb at maths, then enter them for competitions and Olympiads. Get them working on further maths or A level questions. Don't use them to explain algebra to the weaker ones.

““In my opinion private schools, grammar schools and faith schools restrict, rather than increase choice. Oops, another unpopular opinion!”

@Araminta1003I will state the obvious again. The UK already has an 11 plus system. It is called KS2 SATS and it is far more intense than many other European countries run for proper grammar systems.“
I have no idea what you mean by this. Absolutely none!

@CurlewKatewhy does having different types of schools limit choice?

You presumably accept the reality of the back of your head, despite never having seen it with your own eyes.

This is not true. DS did many Olympiads and other supras. He was also subject mentor for Maths He is at Oxford and is on track for a First.

DD was also sciences mentor when she was in sixth form alongside quite heavy head girl responsibilities. We considered these more personal development opportunities than exploitation. It was at a busy time studying for A-Levels and also jumping through all the hoops, interviews and entrance exams for medical school and taking on other responsibilities. However, her teachers and we knew she would still hit A stars in all her A-Levels. These opportunities helped her prioritise, juggle and manage pressure, precisely the qualities she needs for her chosen career as a doctor. She made it to Oxbridge too.

“I will state the obvious again. The UK already has an 11 plus system. It is called KS2 SATS and it is far more intense than many other European countries run for proper grammar systems.“
I have no idea what you mean by this. Absolutely none!”

Seriously? We already test our 11 year olds, in a very intense way, at the end of primary school in England. Those results are then used in some secondary schools for setting. The results are also used officially to hold schools to account for GCSE grades those same kids get. We are testing and segregating anyway. It is just surreptitious. Many people choose comps based on how they set exactly or where they are located. It really is not that different to other forms of selection (private school via payment of fees, church schools via church attendance, grammar schools via a test 9 months earlier, and no, I do not think the tests are that different really). Many 11 plus grammar tests are based on English and Maths and those with VR/NVR, well many state comps do CAT4s in Year 7 that are also similar.

@KendricksGin - did your DC attend grammars or comprehensives? I thought it was grammar schools, where they do most of that type of thing too.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow“But that is what happens if they are the Class Learning Mentor.”

Do you actually have any evidence to support this? You seem to be suggesting that these children do nothing but help the others. It certainly doesn’t apply to my DS-who is the only test case on this thread!

superselective grammars

‘Weaker ones’ in pp is going to be different in a super selective grammar to a mixed ability class though

Don’t you think?

@Araminta1003SATs are entirely different to 11+ exams. And have no impact on where a child goes post year 6.

The school whose website 'boasted" this as being their provision for more able students has:

• a negative P8 score
• Over 12% fewer pupils getting 5 GCSEs incl English and Maths than the LA average and 1% under the England average
• 6 points under the LA average Attainment 8 score and below the England average.

They only enter for 8 GCSEs, the FSM rate is 10%, EAL is 2% and prior higher achievers are 26% of the cohort (prior lower achievers are 16%).

Doesn't sound like it's working too well...

@CurlewKate - KS2 SATS have an impact into what set a child goes, in many schools. Top sets in many comps are just like grammar schools, in terms of the ability of the other children. There are plenty of people now tutoring for top sets in comps, for a reason, or for banding tests.

I was look at primary ed board recently and loads of people tutoring for SATs. Crazy.

But then that tracker follows them all the way to Y11 and if it's not a good fit then you potentially have loads of battles on your hands.

Kids not being pushed because tracker says a 4 at GCSE is great... or kids in trouble because tracker takes no notice of SEN and they're never able to achieve the targets.

@CurlewKate - KS2 SATS have an impact into what set a child goes, in many schools. Top sets in many comps are just like grammar schools, in terms of the ability of the other children. There are plenty of people now tutoring for top sets in comps, for a reason, or for banding tests.

Well, yes. But the whole point of comprehensive school sets is that it’s possible to move up and down. Unlike grammar schools.

Essentially any school that wasn’t an option for them, shouldn’t be an option for anyone else.

Still not seeing how having mentors has made this happen. Sorry to harp on-but my DS got excellent results, enjoyed the mentoring very much, used it on his CV and gained a huge amount of confidence from it. Obviously we can’t know the effect it had- but circumstantial evidence points to it being beneficial for my DS.

Not necessarily. In my experience there are some DC who excel in say English and Humanities subjects but can have a bit of a block with STEM subjects for example. DD said that sometimes girls could around year 8/9 could decide that sciences or maths 'weren't really their thing' and it wasn't that they couldn't do it, more that they needed to understand that they could and have more confidence in themselves with the subjects as they got more challenging.

Super selectives select obviously. They are as hard to get in to as some selective private schools. Parents put effort into accessing them.

Why did you go for that avenue?

In @CurlewKate’sset up those superselectives would be out too.

So @KendricksGin would be using comps as everyone else should.

Maths and sciences were set at my DCs' grammar schools. There was movement between sets at the start of each academic year.