Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

Oh good, not just me!

@CurlewKate

Can you explain how using lesson time to do unpaid teaching instead of being taught is the same as being given an out-of-lesson-time leadership position?

It’s good for children to spend some time helping and supporting their peers.In the private school near us, prefects oversee and help with prep. In his “sink state school” my DS ran revision workshops for Drama. He learned a lot that has actually been helpful on his CV! I’m always amazed at how horrified patents are about this sort of thing-and the disparaging “unpaid TA” label shows what people think of TAs if they think than can be replaced by a 14 year old!

Supervising prep is completely different. We did that as 6th formers at my boarding school. You don't teach and it's not in lesson time.

So your DS gave up his Drama lessons and ran revision workshops instead? Is that correct.

As the parent of a SEN child, I absolutely do NOT want her being taught anything by another pupil. I want her taught by a qualified professional who knows their subject and how to teach.

I thought unqualified teachers weren't allowed anymore. So why are we asking young children to fill in?

Of course children learn things from other DC. One of my DC was g&t in Maths from age 6 and was given completely different work which could be a little bit isolating. He enjoyed joining in some group sessions and explaining stuff 1:1 to other DC. He enjoyed the challenge of making something he had just innately understood understandable to others. He liked helping too. What's wrong with fostering these skills?

I am assuming it was his choice to help do that occasionally? Not the school plan.

It's not good that this school's stated provision for high ability children is to make them 'Class Learning Mentors'.

My child happens to be particularly good at music composition - she's been studying with a university dept for a few years. She finished both the briefs for GCSE in a couple of hours each. The class were assigned several months of lessons after each brief arrived to complete them.

She wasn't told that she should spend those months helping the others because she had finished. She was given other briefs and extension work to do instead so that she was still learning.

Of course you do. You don’t seriously think these children are doing the work of a teacher, do you? I can tell you exactly the sort of thing my DS did if you like? The word “mentor” is a clue.

But was your son doing this during his lesson time? Or after-school?

That is the big difference.

And that is why parents start choosing private schools. Because they will be more like to extend their children's learning rather than saying 'you're ahead, so we can use you to teach the others'.

Hypocrisy beyond belief 😂
Prep is not in lesson time! A child with SEND of their own should not be wasting their precious learning time teaching others.

I was made to teach others in prep. I never volunteered for any "leadership position" and hated every minute of it.

DS2 is currently assistant director of the younger students’ end of year drama production. He’s also hoping to be made a prefect shortly. Neither of these activities/positions involve being made to assist another student during his own lesson time.

Two of my DC teach younger kids music lessons and now get paid quite handsomely for it (they have grade 8 distinctions and their diploma qualifications) and both have also been asked to teach 11 plus. It started with helping friends and volunteering, but then they were quite popular and got recommended around and as they charge far less than adults, they are having to turn tutees and pupils away.
I do not think children should be used as unpaid staff at school though. It is one thing if they choose to volunteer for their IB or DOE or similar, but another, if they get used. It is basically child labour. These DCs were always used in the interests of “mastery” to help others at primary school. I suppose you could say it got them work later on. But they did not enjoy it at the time. Even at 6/7 years of age, once the initial flattery passed - it causes social issues at school if the teacher earmarks certain children as the clever ones, there to help others.

”But was your son doing this during his lesson time? Or after-school?
That is the big difference.”
He was doing the drama stuff in lesson time. He enjoyed it. It was useful to him. And it helped other people. He also sometimes scribed for a child with a physical difficulty in his class. I honestly don’t see why people get so worked up about this sort of thing. It’s very strange.

I agree. I don't believe DC should be used to manage behaviour in class but I see no problem with a DC helping other DC in class. Isn't that society?

No, it's really not.

If that is what is regarded as good practice for state schools then don't be surprised if people opt out.

Why was your child scribing for another child?
Why wasn't proper support in place for that child?
Why wasn't your child being given work at the right level so they didn't have the time to scribe for others?

And if your son was running workshops during his drama lessons, was he not marked absent from those lessons? Why wasn't it an afterschool activity.

Doesn’t this come back to what some posters want for their dc isn’t always what everyone wants.

So it’s great if pp likes that set up but we still shouldn’t abolish or limit choice.

@OhCrumbsWhereNowI don’t think we will ever agree. I think school should be about more than just academic learning. For clarity- my DS could easily do his own work and help some classmates with theirs. When you’re doing things like devised work somebody to help sort and expand ideas is invaluable. And yes, the child concerned did have proper support. But once again, it did my DS no harm to help her for 15 minutes every now and again with something that did not need a trained teacher. But neither he nor I were chasing the only GCSE results Mumsnet considers acceptable. No 12 grade 9s for him!

@CurlewKate - you keep going on and on about kids with all 9s on multiple threads. It is like you are trying to prove MN is not like real life. You are wrong. Who was right about biological sex and the equality act? MN.

By your own admission, tons of kids in private schools with strings of 9s doing iGCSEs are not included in the official GCSE UK stats. Because they are doing iGCSEs.

Educated families value education and know their rights.

In my opinion private schools, grammar schools and faith schools restrict, rather than increase choice. Oops, another unpopular opinion!

I don't think we will. But it probably shows that different people have very different expectations from education.

Helping someone for 15 minutes on a shared devising task is not quite 'running workshops'. And on a shared devising task for drama the stronger members of the group directly benefit from hauling up the weak ones so not entirely altruistic.

I know a lot of kids who don't do GCSE drama because their own grades can be negatively affected if they are grouped with weaker or lazy students.

It doesn’t though as it’s clearly choice other parents make. And that’s why they are in demand even if you choose to avoid.

@Araminta1003Sorry-that was meant to be a joke. Obviously not a good one. Incidentally, are you suggesting that we’re not an educated family and do not value education? I need to be sure before I decide whether to take offence or not!

It comes down to:

1. transparency / openness. The "teacher's little helper" model of classroom management is generally adopted without informing the parents of the child that this is what is happening. This is deception.
2. informed consent. If a school/teacher want a child to sacrifice their own progress in a subject for the common good, or to facilitate the progress of another student, then the informed consent of the parents and child should be sought. Consent generally isn't sought or granted.
3. "as well as" versus "instead of", and voluntary versus imposed. There is a big difference between (a) a student volunteering to spend additional time outside the hours that they themselves should be making progress to help other students, and (b) being told to help other students during their own learning time, with the result that their own academic progress is compromised.

They may restrict choice for those who can't/won't access them, but they expand choice overall.

If you limited choice by removing those, there will just be a shift in where parental resources go.

Do you really think any parent like me is going to say 'oh well, this is our Allocated School' and just find something else to spend our time thinking about?

@OhCrumbsWhereNowFor clarity, he was not working with his own group, but with others. But I like the fact that he learned that helping others is a good thing to do and can help you too.