Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

I think they are now arguing that Labour is being protective and trying to save people money, because the evil private schools fleece innocent parents and their DCs. When DCs from supportive backgrounds will do well wherever, so go ahead and save your 200k plus, work part time and put it towards your DCs future. Labour are doing you a favour! State schools are great now thanks to the Tories…

None of these studies are up to date and account for the SEND crisis. The whole point this has gone to court is because there are more children with SEND and they are being failed and the system is broken for their needs, and by implication, when their needs are not met, it also disrupts the education of other children.
The NAO report is very clear on this.
There is not point going on about how NT supported children from wealthy backgrounds do in good state schools. We all know they do well in their GCSEs there.

Ah, we're back to Schrodinger's logic.

Private schools are so good that they should be closed to prevent their students accruing unfair advantage... and simultaneously so bad that they should be closed to protect naive parents from wasting their money.

How do these type of court cases work? Does it diminish the argument if you also make a different argument which contractions it? Or do judges consider each point separately and in isolation, so it's worth putting forward any arguments you can invent - no matter how contradictory - in case one of them sticks?

"We all know they do well in their GCSEs there."

It seems not everyone does know that. Did you not read the previous posts concluding otherwise?

@EasternStandardOk if there’s not an advantage as you suggest then let people pay and remove the burden from taxpayer.”
There's loads of advantage. It’s just not necessarily measurable in exam results as sone people are saying it is.

@Araminta1003 There is not point going on about how NT supported children from wealthy backgrounds do in good state schools. We all know they do well in their GCSEs there.”

My point is that NT well supported children do well in state schools Mumsnetters would consider bad schools as well.
Ironically, the kids who could benefit most from some of what private schools can offer are the ones who would never go to one.

Ok they do well, so what do you think they are missing out on?

As for the second part bursaries will be hit too which is a big pity.

Why wouldn’t you use the falling state rolls as a chance to increase funding per pupil instead of this VAT policy?

Private schools are so good that they should be closed to prevent their students accruing unfair advantage... and simultaneously so bad that they should be closed to protect naive parents from wasting their money.

Yes and also private school students are thick and entitled yet apparently were these children to attend state schools then results would improve.

There is so much “stuff” that good private schools offer-I honestly don’t understand why their supporters focus on exam results! Loads of cultural capital. Opportunities. Many can provide a much wider choice of subjects, sports and interests. Many provide a private school confidence and ease. I know that it’s claimed the connections thing is outdated and it mostly is, except for a few of the top ones, but private schools are often very good at showing kids what’s available in the world. For starters.

As to my second point, the kids I’m talking about wouldn’t get bursaries. And even if they did, the chasm between them and their new school mates would probably be unbridgeable. And many of the teachers wouldn’t be able for it either.

But why would any parent want to send their child to a bad school if they could possibly avoid it?

Most caring parents want their child to have a happy time at school, not arrive at the end of their education being the 'survivor' of a less than good experience.

I suspect that you think that the answer to eliminating "bad" schools is to force those parents into sending their children to them in that a large enough cohort of vocal parents and their well-behaved, academically inclined kids will somehow exert an influence over the rest and pull up standards for all?

Weirdly most parents don't fancy their children - with their one chance at a childhood and education - being used as guinea pigs in some social engineering experiment.

I saw what happened when my child was used as a stabilising influence on the two 'naughty' boys she was sat between for 2 years of primary (all the girls were used as spacers). Her own SEN was ignored as it wasn't disruptive, her enjoyment of school was negatively affected and her education damaged. If I could go back and know what I know now, I would be in there daily raising merry hell till they sorted the issue or I'd have taken her out and done home ed. Instead I put up with being told that her needs were secondary.

@KendricksGin
@CurlewKate

From the author of the study and in a footnote on the link previously posted:

Matches are produced by finding a pupil from the same primary school with similar Key Stage 2 results. We also match exactly on Year 6 free school meals eligibility and whether the pupil’s first language is English or not. We find 25,000 good matches – that is to say, matches we think are sufficiently similar. Each pair of matched KS2 results is within 0.2 standard deviations. The groups are also reasonably well-balanced on a measure of neighbourhood deprivation (IDACI) even though that is not used in the matching.

If you'd like to do your own study go ahead!

Anti-private school people really need to decide WHY they are bad - is it because the school is better (in which case the same child would get better results at private vs state, and really the problem is the state school not being good enough) or is it just selection bias - in which case why does closing private schools help the state sector? I've yet to see any credible research that moving a small number of extra kids into a random state school makes any difference to the state school performance.

@BarbadossunsetHad you considered joining some of us in the interesting and civilised conversation we’re having?

So you’re coming from a place of taking some of this stuff away from some children?

Why?

You could just bump up state funding per pupil and get closer that way.

@OhCrumbsWhereNowThe point I was trying, obviously badly, to make was that my ds’s school wasn’t a bad school-it just looked that way if you judge by results.

But that is also the case in state education.

Our local private school at £25k a year fees doesn't offer 4 languages, doesn't offer free archery and horse-riding, has a tiny offer in terms of music ensembles and only half the GCSE options that DD's comp has available.

The biggest gulf I have seen (and I have experience of every kind of school from top public boarding to state grammar to private prep to comp to state primary - rural and London) is between top state provision and poor state provision.

And it worked for your child because they were able to be isolated away in a top set bubble.

What happens to those parents with SEN children who might manage in a small private school with small, quiet classes to be working at 7-9 grades, but who will sink without trace in a big comprehensive with no attention and constant disruption and never even be on the radar let alone fulfill potential?

Private schools also don't have a monopoly on confidence and ease. That is just as much down to parents and home environment.

@EasternStandardSo you’re coming from a place of taking some of this stuff away from some children?
Why?
You could just bump up state funding per pupil and get closer that way.

I agree that there needs to be much more money ploughed into education. You won’t be surprised to know that I still think VAT is a step in that direction. (We’re never going to agree on that one, so I don’t think there’s much point rehearsing our arguments again!)

But a child who has to leave a private school because of VAT won’t lose that stuff, because their parents will make sure they still get it. Privilege gonna privilege!

@OhCrumbsWhereNow“And it worked for your child because they were able to be isolated away in a top set bubble.”
He wasn’t, actually. The school did a mixture of setting and mixed ability.

Ok so leave them where they are and use the education budget for those in state.

It’s a no brainer surely. Hence the U.K. being such an outlier in this policy and really it’s for Starmer and co to get votes than educational or economic sense.

It’s because people are invested in a poor policy. We could do so much better.

I don't understand your logic here that the biggest gulf is between top state and poor state. The biggest gulf is surely between top independent schools (Westminster, St Pauls, Wycombe Abbey, Eton, Harrow etc.) and poor state provision. I have direct experience of these top independents and very good state grammars and while the exam results are similar, the provision is nowhere near the same.

But the state schools are supposed to be getting similar funding.

If Comp A was getting 5 times as much per pupil I would find that understandable, but why does my local comp manage to be so poor in terms of provision compared with the comp we choose?

Obviously there is a difference between Eton and Sink Comp - but also vast difference in pounds in per head. Ditto between my state grammar and the public schools we enjoyed match teas at!

Reality is the best lefty filter.

But they don't get similar levels of funding. Many grammars get much less than low performing comps. Pupil premium impacts.

comparing the top independent vs "poorest" state school is problematic because state schools receive the same funding. so you will need to compare intake.
comparing intake brings you to comparing top independent socioeconomic background vs poorly performing socioeconomic background.

and if the grammars have slightly less financial support, again it highlights the issue is socioeconomic background of the students, maybe even adding in personal values and aspirations. factors that are unpopular to judge.