Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

Lets be honest, if independent schools didn’t perform better than state schools then labour wouldn’t be interested in damaging them.

@FairMindedMaiden

“Lets be honest, if independent schools didn’t perform better than state schools then labour wouldn’t be interested in damaging them.”

<sigh>

I thought most had agreed this was damaging the private sector?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting misogyny doesn’t exist in independent schools. The “Everyone’s Invited” movement started in independent schools after all.

However, if you want your daughter to avoid being subjected to day to day misogyny and even assault at school then an all girls school offers that. Restricting families from accessing all girls schools (especially given state options not available in many places) almost inevitably means more girls will be subjected to misogyny and abuse at school.

If you're sighing about the fact state schools don't perform as well and you want to distort figures to the point that everyone praises teachers for teaching regardless of outcome because "they taught!" that's great. We know socio-economics matters with education and forming the child. We know teaching is another formative tool. Being impressed that kids aren't stagnating or going backwards because you can mix figures about claiming parents don't earn as much (how many trades do you know who actually declare everything? How many dads with kids at state are tax dodging to get out of maintenance?) rather than accepting many parents in the state sector often don't care about education - see dads who don't even pay maintenance as an example. Then you should admit you are penalising parents that do care about education and just so happen to be able to afford to do something about it. If state schools did the same or better (see some grammars) parents simply would not pay. We don't all live in central London like Kier.

Wonder how much Labour’s spending on their five KCs which could have been used to fund improvements in education? And specifically in SEN provision?

@TRexHamsterNo. I’m sighing because the sort of mainstream children who do well at private school would do equally well at state school. Supported, privileged children like mine-and I hazard a guess, like yours. If you look at the results of only the top set of my ds’s school, it would look like a grammar/private school. The rest of the cohort-not so much.

Sorry but you are trying to tell parents what they should do. You have no idea what kind of schools are local to each family, what history they or their kids have with schools and other dynamics. I know my DC couldn't have taken a subject she excels at at the only girls option near us (lucky we have one but is a poorly performing grammar with everything that goes with it), so no, she would not do "just as well" there because they'd never have even found out her best skills.

No, the fact is that the PP raising it as a weakness in state schools inferred that it was a state school issue. It categorically isn't and that has now been accepted. That's all.

I raised it because it was highlighted in Adolescence. That was highlighted because it is the most common setting for most children and the behaviour is widespread. Many parents who watched it were similarly appalled and probably imagined it only goes on in "posh" schools because it rarely hits the paper when it's a daily norm at the local comp.

@TRexHamsterI raised it because it was highlighted in Adolescence. That was highlighted because it is the most common setting for most children and the behaviour is widespread. Many parents who watched it were similarly appalled and probably imagined it only goes on in "posh" schools because it rarely hits the paper when it's a daily norm at the local comp.”

Oh, come on! Your post certainly implied that it’s a state school issue when it’s actually a young man issue. And I can’t be certain, but I am pretty sure that it’s not the “daily norm” in either sector. It was just a more covert than usual bit of state school bashing.

No.

PP said:
”First point - of course it isn't only a state school issue, but it is clearly more of an issue in these schools who have no funding to keep teachers or deal with the behaviours that force other kids to leave.”

To which you replied with the link to the headline about the £20 000 private school.

Your link does not disprove PP who had already said that it not just a state school issue.
She may be wrong in the rest of her assertions but the link doesn’t prove that - it just catches the attention for those that lack critical thinking and is pointless.

Well that particular school in the article clearly has shed loads of funding and teachers and they still allegedly had a problem so where is the logic there?

@CurlewKate

The FFT education datalab report compares the progress of similar students in terms of KS2 results who go from the same primary school into the state or independent sector. Students who go into the independent sector tend to gave better outcomes.

https://ffteducationdatalab.org.uk/2019/03/long-term-outcomes-how-do-independent-school-pupils-outcomes-differ-from-those-of-state-school-pupils/

@Runemum-the report you link to no longer exists.

That's weird, link worked for me?

It worked for me too.

It works for me now too. It gave a 404 message the first time. Maybe it’s got a “lefty filter”! I’ll go and read it.

I mean-even the writer of that article can’t say whether the difference in outcome is due to private school or the cohort! It would be interesting to see a similar analysis from more recent times when social deprivation is taken into account. As it stands, the discrepancies are not particularly striking.

If you can find a better data set please do share - matching pupils for all personal, family and school level characteristics is hardly easy.
This analysis shows kids attending state primary but independent secondary had 73% attainment of 3 A levels vs 60% for kids at the same primary who then went to state secondary, and in terms of attaining a university degree it was 73% vs 60%. I'd say that's a pretty significant attainment gap personally.
As they were all at the same state primary to start off with - so presumably living in the same geographical area and likely to be similar socioeconomically - it's a reasonable comparison, although of course not perfect.

"presumably living in the same geographical area and likely to be similar socioeconomically" is a very sweeping assumption. You can have a very wide spread of socioeconomic background in the same primary school cohort. It is very likely that it is the ones at the top end that will go to independent secondary. It is extremely likely that there are other factors at play here.

@IHeartHalloumi I would love to see a deeper dive. But, for example, my DS went to an excellent state primary which had a hugely mixed cohort-the school had an area of significant deprivation on one side and a small market town much loved by commuters on the other. I can’t remember the exact details of his cohort when he got to secondary, but I know that there were pushing 40% classified as disadvantaged. I know that there were about 15 in his set at GCSE and they all got the 9s,8s and 7s you would expect. As did some in the next set down. Which is what I mean by saying results only mean anything if you can look at them in context because the school’s raw data would make most Mumsnetters faint with shock.

rather than calling them state-independent, or non paying and fee paying why not consider disrupted-non disrupted schools.
children who attend school with non disruptive students achieve xyz. because as far as I’m aware people choose private to get away from the disruptive students.

@KendricksGin has provided the theory-I have provided the case study!

Ok if there’s not an advantage as you suggest then let people pay and remove the burden from taxpayer.

Great, we can use the education budget further for each student in state.