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No exodus to state sector after VAT added to private school fees, say English councils.

502 replies

FruitPolos · 10/03/2025 09:25

Article in today's Guardian. Interesting to note the comments from Surrey in particular given the discussion on Mumsnet about this particular area.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/mar/10/no-exodus-to-state-sector-after-vat-added-to-private-school-fees-say-english-councils

"Surrey, which has large numbers of children in private education, recorded a dip in the proportion of families getting their first pick of schools for September. But Clare Curran, the county council’s cabinet member for children, families and lifelong learning, said: “Surrey has not seen a significant rise in the number of applications for a year 7 state school place for children currently in the independent sector compared to last year.“For September 2025, 664 on-time applications were received from Surrey residents with children in the independent sector, compared with 608 for September 2024, a rise of 56.“While the percentage of applicants offered their first preference school has decreased for September 2025 [80.6%] compared with 2024 [83.1%], the 2025 figure is not dissimilar to the 2023 figure of 81.3%.”

No exodus to state sector after VAT added to private school fees, say English councils

Most say they have seen no impact on applications for year 7 places, despite warnings from those against policy

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2025/mar/10/no-exodus-to-state-sector-after-vat-added-to-private-school-fees-say-english-councils

OP posts:
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OhCrumbsWhereNow · 10/03/2025 19:21

NeverDropYourMooncup · 10/03/2025 18:40

Not so much when you see that the number of applications in total have decreased from 12,815 in 2023/24 to 12,241 in 2024/25.

So those 58 kids shouldn't have a problem finding a place, what with there being an overall drop in numbers of 11 year olds of 574.

Edited

It's not just about them finding a place. This is a normal admissions round.

There are many concerns over this. Not least from state school parents who might have got a grammar or popular comp place and now won't because parents have chosen to stay with state (as they are entitled to) rather than move to private schools.

Moglet4 · 10/03/2025 19:24

strappyshoe · 10/03/2025 18:42

@Moglet4 What council is that? I've never heard of one doing it so soon.

Trafford

Moglet4 · 10/03/2025 20:28

cantkeepawayforever · 10/03/2025 19:09

Suggestions to build another school seem to be falling on deaf ears though…

Is there a genuine shortage of places, necessitating a new school, or just a mismatch between supply and demand for places in favoured schools, with sufficient places in the system overall?

(I used to work in a school
where we heard many, many appeals each month and could easily have expanded by a class or two per year group had we had physical space. However, no new school was needed as there were sufficient places for the population (and some to spare) in local schools overall)

Edited

A new school is needed or will be in a year or two. This year there are technically enough places in the borough but the area is huge with poor transport to some of the schools. Each year there’s more and more demand though. MP seems to be finally realising that it’s not sustainable

cantkeepawayforever · 10/03/2025 20:50

That’s tricky, especially with the (national) picture of falling cohort sizes in future years. Very difficult if a new school is only needed for a couple of years after which net capacity will again meet demand.

What’s the picture in primary - the usual harbinger of cohorts to come?

InigoJollifant · 10/03/2025 21:08

Knew it was Trafford & was going to say Lostock is hugely under capacity, it’s just that people don’t want to send their kids there!

and am hearing interesting things this year where Flixton Girls is admitting to a much further distance than previous more recent years.

(ex Trafford resident who takes an interest still!)

Bunnycat101 · 10/03/2025 22:17

I think the VAT issue was always going to be a long game. The vast majority of parents with kids in private schools will be sticking it out to pay the VAT especially for critical exam years. However, the test is the kids that would have left the state sector for secondary and that is going to be harder to measure.

Interestingly though I thought it was going to put off people at our state primary from going for private secondary and that really was the case initially when it was announced pre election. All the conversations were about how VAT was the final straw and that people weren’t prepared to sacrifice holidays etc. A year later, people are seeing the impact of funding cuts in the state sector biting alongside some dire behaviour and the vibe now seems to be back to stretching for private despite VAT for secondary.

Araminta1003 · 11/03/2025 05:42

“Agree- I laughed out loud at 'the litmus test has always been...' as the first response. Classic conspiracy theory appproach.”

@napody please elaborate? Nobody can gather reliable data in advance for what may happen next August post GCSEs. It has always been the case that you can apply to loads of Sixth Forms directly who will offer directly. There is simply no way of knowing for sure how private school parents are going to behave and state schools, if selective, will allocate to the highest scorers at GCSE and will give the highest scorers subject preferences. So to dismiss this as a weak point, is a bit callous? You can believe private school parents won’t go state en masse, but if they do, it will be a problem.

ICouldBeVioletSky · 11/03/2025 07:29

strappyshoe · 10/03/2025 18:42

@Moglet4 What council is that? I've never heard of one doing it so soon.

Hertfordshire publishes all the admissions stats on National Offer Day, and then updates them for the two continuing interest rounds.

Interestingly when you are made a secondary school offer, if you decline it you are invited to say why in the admissions portal - I think the options were “My child had a place at independent school” (and you can name which one) and “I’m going to homeschool my child.”

I don’t think this is new/VAT-related, I suspect it’s related to the LA’s duty to ensure all children have an education. But Herts at least should have reasonably accurate info to compare with previous years as to % of kids turning down state for private.

Think I might need to put in a FOIA after the acceptance deadline…

Mielikki · 11/03/2025 09:25

Moglet4 · 10/03/2025 18:25

Our council publishes all of the schools two days after offer day on their website. I’m guessing most councils don’t do this.

Edited

Ah, I read your previous answer where you talked about Surrey as implying you were in Surrey (which has not published yet) - apologies.

Moglet4 · 11/03/2025 09:49

InigoJollifant · 10/03/2025 21:08

Knew it was Trafford & was going to say Lostock is hugely under capacity, it’s just that people don’t want to send their kids there!

and am hearing interesting things this year where Flixton Girls is admitting to a much further distance than previous more recent years.

(ex Trafford resident who takes an interest still!)

yes, didn’t want to name names and run the risk of offending someone 🤣 You’re right, though. All of the Alty and Sale schools are oversubscribed- it’s a problem. The pupils are usually offered places in Flixton, Partington or Lostock but even if they were the best schools in the world, the public transport links are poor. That’s really interesting about Flixton. They’re finally trying a bit in Alty too. The council, last I heard, was bidding for Loreto prep site to extend the secondary and ACA has just had a large expansion. Interestingly, a new private school is also opening this year but it has tiny capacity. Still it’s not enough. I think at some point they’re just going to have to accept that a new school is needed or do something about the bus options!

Araminta1003 · 11/03/2025 10:17

Is it legal to expand the grammar schools or not? Can they just add places after consultation, if there is the space?

InigoJollifant · 11/03/2025 10:47

Moglet4 · 11/03/2025 09:49

yes, didn’t want to name names and run the risk of offending someone 🤣 You’re right, though. All of the Alty and Sale schools are oversubscribed- it’s a problem. The pupils are usually offered places in Flixton, Partington or Lostock but even if they were the best schools in the world, the public transport links are poor. That’s really interesting about Flixton. They’re finally trying a bit in Alty too. The council, last I heard, was bidding for Loreto prep site to extend the secondary and ACA has just had a large expansion. Interestingly, a new private school is also opening this year but it has tiny capacity. Still it’s not enough. I think at some point they’re just going to have to accept that a new school is needed or do something about the bus options!

It’s all so distorted in Trafford though - it has probably changed now somewhat as the demographics have changed slightly, but when I was looked at Stretford Grammar for DD (now in Y12) around 50% of the kids attending came from Manchester LA.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 11/03/2025 10:51

Bunnycat101 · 10/03/2025 22:17

I think the VAT issue was always going to be a long game. The vast majority of parents with kids in private schools will be sticking it out to pay the VAT especially for critical exam years. However, the test is the kids that would have left the state sector for secondary and that is going to be harder to measure.

Interestingly though I thought it was going to put off people at our state primary from going for private secondary and that really was the case initially when it was announced pre election. All the conversations were about how VAT was the final straw and that people weren’t prepared to sacrifice holidays etc. A year later, people are seeing the impact of funding cuts in the state sector biting alongside some dire behaviour and the vibe now seems to be back to stretching for private despite VAT for secondary.

There was always a lot of noise from some private sector parents who insisted that they would use state as a result of the VAT. It was pretty obvious that it was hot air, in many cases, and that they would carry on with private as planned.

twistyizzy · 11/03/2025 10:58

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 11/03/2025 10:51

There was always a lot of noise from some private sector parents who insisted that they would use state as a result of the VAT. It was pretty obvious that it was hot air, in many cases, and that they would carry on with private as planned.

I was 1 of those but genuinely thought we would be forced to move to state however DD has since been awarded scholarship for Yrs 9-11 which ameliorates the situation to the extent we will only feel 5% of VAT. We have cashed in some savings on the understanding she will have to move to state for Yr 12-13.
So don't dismiss this as "hot air". It took a lot of thought and backwards/forwards before we made our final decision

EasternStandard · 11/03/2025 11:04

@twistyizzy that's great.

cantkeepawayforever · 11/03/2025 11:14

InigoJollifant · 11/03/2025 10:47

It’s all so distorted in Trafford though - it has probably changed now somewhat as the demographics have changed slightly, but when I was looked at Stretford Grammar for DD (now in Y12) around 50% of the kids attending came from Manchester LA.

So another option would potentially be a division between ‘catchment’ and ‘out of catchment’ places in terms of numbers and scores, which I know is done elsewhere.

Seems unreasonable for an LA to have to commit funding for a new school when they would have enough places for those actually living in their area, but a disproportionate number come from outside.

AshKeys · 11/03/2025 11:16

Poster keep talking about spaces in state schools as if there is no cost in filling them. If a school has less classes due to undersubscription then it can save money on teachers, resources, TAs, and possible management posts. Across a county this might also translate to being able to close a school, or not have to extend other schools,with significant cost savings to the council/tax payers.

There is a cost to having additi9nal pupils regardless of if there are theoretical spaces or those extra pupils mean numbers drop less than expected.

cantkeepawayforever · 11/03/2025 11:29

It’s not as simple as that. In a primary, for example, the budget is predicated on 30 children per class. So if a class of 25 gains 5 more pupils, that is pure financial gain.

Yes, if a school is 30 children short per year group, then 1 teacher can be saved - but that’s really quite rare. What’s much more common is being 5, 10, 15 short, and so those extra children are pure gain.

Resources etc -particularly consumable resources such as paper - are MUCH less costly for a school than the fixed costs of classrooms and the almost-fixed cost of teachers.

TAs are a moot point. Given that the children of privileged families who might previously have gone private are not likely to disproportionately feature very high needs children, then a simple change in numbers is unlikely to affect TA numbers that much. Many schools now only have 1:1 TAs for high needs children anyway.

The staffing of secondary schools is more complicated, but in many ways the same principle applies - if 5 children likely to take MFL join, bringing the GCSE MFL class to 28 from 23, that’s more money in for none out. Yes, in some cases a school may be able to cease offering a subject or drop a core subject teacher to part time if they shrink in size, but for that has to be offset every class that moves further away from an economic size as numbers decrease.

Yes, in the same way as the private schools that have announced closure are often smaller, or operating well below capacity, there may be some savings available from closing a few state schools (as happens every year) but saying that ‘keeping private schools open is a financial benefit because some state schools can close’ is not a clear cause and effect relationship.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 11/03/2025 11:56

Anybody got a set of spanners? Those goalposts have been dragged around so much that they're going to need tightening up before the next move.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 11/03/2025 11:58

cantkeepawayforever · 11/03/2025 11:29

It’s not as simple as that. In a primary, for example, the budget is predicated on 30 children per class. So if a class of 25 gains 5 more pupils, that is pure financial gain.

Yes, if a school is 30 children short per year group, then 1 teacher can be saved - but that’s really quite rare. What’s much more common is being 5, 10, 15 short, and so those extra children are pure gain.

Resources etc -particularly consumable resources such as paper - are MUCH less costly for a school than the fixed costs of classrooms and the almost-fixed cost of teachers.

TAs are a moot point. Given that the children of privileged families who might previously have gone private are not likely to disproportionately feature very high needs children, then a simple change in numbers is unlikely to affect TA numbers that much. Many schools now only have 1:1 TAs for high needs children anyway.

The staffing of secondary schools is more complicated, but in many ways the same principle applies - if 5 children likely to take MFL join, bringing the GCSE MFL class to 28 from 23, that’s more money in for none out. Yes, in some cases a school may be able to cease offering a subject or drop a core subject teacher to part time if they shrink in size, but for that has to be offset every class that moves further away from an economic size as numbers decrease.

Yes, in the same way as the private schools that have announced closure are often smaller, or operating well below capacity, there may be some savings available from closing a few state schools (as happens every year) but saying that ‘keeping private schools open is a financial benefit because some state schools can close’ is not a clear cause and effect relationship.

Edited

Over 22% of privately educated kids either have an EHCP or SEN Support. That's over 100,000 children.

Lots of parents moved their children to private schools because they weren't getting support for their needs in the state sector.

Can you give sources for your claim that "the children of privileged families who might previously have gone private are not likely to disproportionately feature very high needs children,", I'd be really interested to read them.

EasternStandard · 11/03/2025 11:59

NeverDropYourMooncup · 11/03/2025 11:56

Anybody got a set of spanners? Those goalposts have been dragged around so much that they're going to need tightening up before the next move.

It's pretty obvious though. It's usual for parents to apply to both.

Moglet4 · 11/03/2025 12:07

cantkeepawayforever · 11/03/2025 11:14

So another option would potentially be a division between ‘catchment’ and ‘out of catchment’ places in terms of numbers and scores, which I know is done elsewhere.

Seems unreasonable for an LA to have to commit funding for a new school when they would have enough places for those actually living in their area, but a disproportionate number come from outside.

All of the grammars have got pretty tight catchments now. Only 20 top places are given regardless of address.

AshKeys · 11/03/2025 12:07

Yes, if a school is 30 children short per year group, then 1 teacher can be saved - but that’s really quite rare. What’s much more common is being 5, 10, 15 short, and so those extra children are pure gain.

Are composite classes not a thing in Surrey? You don’t just consider a single class, or for that matter, a single school when deciding how many classes are necessary.

TAs are a moot point. Given that the children of privileged families who might previously have gone private are not likely to disproportionately feature very high needs children, then a simple change in numbers is unlikely to affect TA numbers that much. Many schools now only have 1:1 TAs for high needs children anyway.

Where is your evidence for this? Many many families send children to private schools because their SEN means they cannot cope in mainstream school. I know quite a lot of families who have done this with autistic children who needed a lot of extra support in state schools and were still being failed because they were unable to cope with the school environment. Whereas with smaller class sizes, more teacher attention and a calmer school environment meant they thrived in private schools. Those were also the families that were stretching themselves the most to go private.

Moglet4 · 11/03/2025 12:09

InigoJollifant · 11/03/2025 10:47

It’s all so distorted in Trafford though - it has probably changed now somewhat as the demographics have changed slightly, but when I was looked at Stretford Grammar for DD (now in Y12) around 50% of the kids attending came from Manchester LA.

Not anymore. At Stretford and Urmston the top 20 scorers are offered places regardless of address, the rest are done by distance. At Alty Girls, it’s just pass (regardless of score) then purely distance. At the boys it’s a bit different and after closest places allocated it’s done by score so yes, that does throw up some silly distances.

Labraradabrador · 11/03/2025 13:29

NeverDropYourMooncup · 11/03/2025 11:56

Anybody got a set of spanners? Those goalposts have been dragged around so much that they're going to need tightening up before the next move.

The goalposts are pretty straightforward to my mind - does this net a meaningful amount of revenue once costs are accounted for. Once we consider reclaiming of vat on capital expenditure, the added cost of educating additional children (both those that move to state as well as never start state due to vat), economic impacts of teacher/staff redundancies, and net impact on income tax from affected parents that as a consequence change their level of participation in the uk workforce does this policy generate any money? If yes, was it sufficient money to justify the level of disruption to affected families and children?

i don’t think we know the answer yet, and it will probably be a few years until we see the full picture. Sept 2025 will be a good indicator, though, as it will at least indicate whether Labour’s forecasts for revenue are remotely on track