Is this the end of Latin in state schools?

[Edmontine]

Depressing news:

The Guardian

I’m not the person who suggested that children can teach themselves Latin in their spare time off the internet! I think it is bonkers suggesting that children can just watch a video and learn a subject.

(Not to mention insulting to Latin teachers that they don’t give any value add!)

Because the school day is a fixed number of hours and there's plenty that's more important than Latin lessons, in my opinion and of others on this thread.

If parents are willing to pay for the teacher then the option of private school is available where I'm sure Latin is taught more commonly. If that's out of someone's price range they could pay for a tutor? Just like you would for musical instrument lessons.

They could remove RE in state schools. Waste of time. If a child is interested in religion, they can go to church / synagogue / mosque etc with their parents.

I could’ve used those 4 hours a week better. Financial guidance for the future maybe.

Teachers can - and do - teach live online. No-one can learn in a structured, purposeful way by wandering about the Internet by themselves.

You don’t have to study Latin grammar or literature to understand the Latin vocabulary that is used in science and medicine though.

You can just learn the Latin terms in the same way you learn other aspects of science and medicine.

Lots and lots of people have very good general knowledge of Latin terms just from reading widely*. No University class will assume prior knowledge of the more obscure/specialist ones.

*In my social circle of educated professionals I’d say that no more than 50% studied Latin at school. 100% are comfortable with the use of Latin in work and social settings and never once has anyone had to have anything explained to them.

In the first line of The Times article it says ‘cut down on’ museum and theatre trips, not abolish them.

But surely that has a cost. The point made was if the state school didn’t teach it then a bright child could simply do it in their own time off the internet.

obviously if you can afford it then you can pay a tutor but many can’t afford it so never get the opportunity to find out that it might be something they are interested in/ good at.

Again this boils down to that only the rich get to do certain subjects which is eltist which is what I thought the government was trying to remove by adding VAT on private schools. Ie giving all children the same opportunities.

It does have a cost but the cost per pupil would be significantly reduced if say, 100 pupils from different schools attended a live online lesson with one teacher and one to manage the chat facility. Pupils not free to attend the live lesson would watch a recording of it, further reducing the cost per pupil.

You don't have to be rich to afford a tutor in Latin outside of school, plenty of working and middle class could do this if the demand is there (which I expect it isn't). Guitar lessons, maths tutoring, football, swimming lessons.. they're not considered elitist but would cost similar.

You can still do Latin as an A Level, regardless of whether your family is rich or not.

We can agree to disagree. My opinion is that Latin as a GCSE isn't a good use of resources, you're welcome to think otherwise.

Can I just say that as at least one other person has already mentioned, starting Latin from scratch and doing A level two years later would be virtually impossible, certainly if you wanted a decent grade. It would be like trying to start Maths from scratch and reach A level standard in two years. The base knowledge needed is enormous. There's a whole way of thinking and learning you need to get to grips with, especially if you've never studied a modern language properly (i.e. being taught grammar, not just how to parrot a few phrases).

There were plenty of people at my children’s’ primary school who could barely afford uniform let alone tutoring in any extra curricular!

My kids thought Latin was cool. Thanks to Harry Potter. I was able to translate a few bits , having a smattering of it from the old Mass.

Not much point in Latin since the 60's or thereabouts when church services moved from Latin to English

I don't agree with using school time and resources for extra citizenship and PSHE and that kind of thing 'because I don't see the point of Trigonometry and Latin and Music'. What of your kid has a flair for something along those lines? There are many applications for useless sounding subjects.

Also condensing sciences and other academic subjects. IMO school should be mainly about the opportunity to learn, and learning how to learn, critical thinking and suchlike. Ok, some learning to function in society but not how to file tax returns and other life admin. That can be done online and will be by most people. There isn't a proper substitute for even a little bit of early exposure to music theory and practice, mathematics, languages, etc.

I think we specialise too early in this country with the A level system bad would argue for more or a baccalaureate

School teaches you how to learn.
Plus at primary it gives you the basics, so that you can grasp what you are reading when you study for yourself. Then the more you know, the easier it is to learn more.

That wasn't your point though. You said only the rich could study Latin and I disagree. There's a vast proportion of people above the poverty line who could choose to tutor their kids in Latin but they don't.

Again, I don't see why Latin at GCSE is necessary. If pp's are correct that picking up at A Level is nearly impossible then by that logic it's already out of reach for so many as it's not a standard GCSE offering. In which case why does it matter if funding is pulled for those 40 schools (timing excluded)?

Hardly. Latin has never just been relevant to Catholics who wanted to understand what the priest was saying.

One of the great glories of Latin, which gives insight into the different ways languages work and how they shape the way their native speakers think, is how concise it can be. My favourite example of this is from the historian Tacitus, who said about the Emperor Galba ^Capax imperii nisi imperasset^. This can't be translated into four English words. It means that he appeared to have all the necessary qualities to be a good emperor, but unfortunately he then became Emperor and fell down on the job. Applicable to a great many other politicians since.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

My sister Gloria was sick on the bus on Monday?

That is my point. When I say ‘rich’ I mean people who can afford to spend money on their children on things like private schools/ tutoring/extra curriculars. All the things that people complain about that are luxuries and elitist and are unfair because they give certain children an advantage over other children who can’t afford it.

the labour government have actively said they want all children to have equality of opportunity. if only people who send their children private or can afford tutors have access to to a certain subject then that goes against the notion of equality of opportunity. This extra piece of funding helped to level the playing field.

for the record I dropped Latin before GCSE as did my children. We were pretty awful. I know plenty of children at their schools (private) who not only did Latin but Ancient Greek and classics GCSE’s. Potentially many employers/ universities might find it impressive they have done them and it might give them an advantage. I certainly would be pretty impressed if I found someone was good at Latin. It may be the difference between getting an oxbridge place or not. Who knows but frustrating for the person who never got a chance to try it

I strongly believe that your bank balance should not have any influence on your opportunity to study a subject that interests you.

It's all very well saying children can just learn Latin off the internet - a few very motivated ones can, but most people do need the presence of a teacher to help them - but how will they know that they want to do that in the first place? The same is true of art, classical music, theatre etc. Exposure to educational/cultural possibilities is really important.

I don't think there is a lot of clll for Latin these days. But it can be quite useful. Shame if it disappears.

Oh come off it, you can't equate "rich" with anyone who can afford extra curricular activities. Like I said there's a multitude of household incomes that can afford swimming lessons, keyboard lessons, football subs etc. The line isn't drawn between "absolutely skint" and "must be able to afford Latin."

I'm not rich by any means but if they wanted to I could stretch to tutoring once a week in Latin. The fact is it's obviously not popular, ergo not particularly necessary.

The extra funding did practically nothing to level the playing field considering only 2.7% of stage schools offer Latin at KS3. Is funding a very small subsection of schools really worth it for a subject not deemed necessary in the vast, vast majority of state secondary schools?

If giving all children equal opportunity is important would you object to funding GCSE polo lessons during PE? Mandarin? History of Art? Philosophy? Or do we accept that some subjects aren't actually important at GCSE level and we should concentrate on funding those that are necessary rather than those that are just "nice to have."

There will always be people who can afford to pay much more for their children's education, that's the basis of private schooling. I generally don't agree with the premise of private schools and would love to see a real levelling up of state schools everywhere but offering Latin GCSE? Shouldn't be a focus at all in my opinion. I'd rather school funding went towards many, many other things instead, not just the subjects mentioned previously, but paying teachers a fair salary, ensuring classrooms are equipped with correct equipment, schools nurses and whatnot.

meditrina · Today 15:38
Sunset6 · Today 15:26
Sic transit gloria mundi.
My sister Gloria was sick on the bus on Monday?

Caesar adsum iam forte
Brutus aderat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sic inat.